Are you a conciliator in terms of Trotskyism?

Ok nice.

Lets get this forum going!

Ill post it tomorrow though as now I am going to sleep.

Goodnight!

I for one am looking forward to that

Led - I'm glad you started this thread as someone who is relatively new to all these different Trot groups it can seem a bit overwhelming deciding which one to choose. It seems that everyone has an argument or a case to be made against one another and quotes and party positions from 30+ years ago are debated as furiously as if it had happened yesterday.

When I was younger I remember throwing up my hands and just remaining unorganized; unable to decipher what was what from the endless debates and polemics. I imagine that many Trotskyists and Trotskyist-sympathizers probably have done the same.

I was invited to attend an IMT meeting here in the states about ago, until recently I never heard of the CWI (not an attack, just stating a personal observation) I did, albeit briefly look over at the CWI website and from what I can tell the differences between the two groups seem rather minimal, at least at first glance. I agree with OI that events in the future will provide for some opportunity at reconciliation. And I would consider that a positive development.

Led - I'm glad you started this thread as someone who is relatively new to all these different Trot groups it can seem a bit overwhelming deciding which one to choose.

It's not necessary to choose one, in fact one of the main causes of disillusionment is joining an organization or party just because you happen to broadly identify with them (ah, it has the word "communist in its name, or it refers to itself as Trotskyist, etc.) without having looked up the history of that organization and without knowing what it is really about.

So to any newcomers, I suggest you do that first - and make sure you have a basic understanding of Marxism - before you leap into the world of organizations/parties and of course sects.

Merging all of the Trotskyist groups into one would not be adequate. Our goal should a broad unbrella alliance with all parts of the left including Stalinists and reformists as working class political representation has almost virtually disappeared so our aim in the imediate future must be to revive it. This would have to take the form of an umbrella organisation because we still have a lot of differences so we'd need to retain independant organisations in order for each group to be able to put thier aguments across. Though it is not inconceivable that in the future when our differences have been worked out and there is higher level of consciousness amongst the w/c that we can form a united mass marxist party.
A united party of Trotskists will not be possible any time soon for a number of reasons, some dogmatically cling to the old workers parties in the vain hope they can be won back, some wouldn't compete in elections as they see it as reformism, some are just too opportunistic and of course there is an extremely low level of class conscousness amongst the w/c today so it would still be a tiny and irrelevant group. In fact I'd go as far to say that some trots would be better off trying to work with certain tankie groups than they would with other trots.

there is an extremely low level of class conscousness amongst the w/c today

That you would have to explain, I really don't agree.
What are you main arguments for that assertion?

That you would have to explain, I really don't agree.
What are you main arguments for that assertion?

I'm talking about Europe here really obvioulsy in South America and party of Africa and Asia there is a higher level of class consciousness. Take the example of Britain, where the Tories and Labour over the last 30 years have implemented neo-liberalism. What they have done is destroyed manufacturing and nationalized industries where there were big work places, whole commuities built round these industries and strong trade unions which have been replaced by low paid sevice sector jobs which usually have no unions, with workers travelling further to work, therfore less of a community built around them and so w/c people are much more atomized. Another factor is the idea of a "property owning democracy" with most w/c people owning a house making them believe that they are middle class rather than working class. Further the ideological blow to the more advanced worker came in the form of the USSR and the deformed workers states in the eatern bloc convincing many that socialism just doesn't work, of course they weren't properly socialist but were percieved to be so none the less. Evidence for this can be seen in the dropping off of TU membership to about 7 million, the low level of struggle that took place between 1991-2001, the fact that if all marxist groups in the country merged we'd still only have 5-7 thousand members and the absense of a working class base in the in social democratic party Labour. This pattern has been repeated throughout Europe, obviously with variations from one country to another. Though since 2002 there has begun to be a pick up in the amount of struggles going on and this will rise as w/c people are made to pay for capitalisms latest crisis and coming to socialist conclusions in there search for answers. But the still very low level of class consciousness is something all Marxists need to come to terms with if we are going to rebuild the movement which it has to be said is in a parlous state at the moment. We need to get ourslelves out there and educate and agitate in order raise w/c class consciouness.

Further the ideological blow to the more advanced worker came in the form of the USSR and the deformed workers states in the eatern bloc

Sorry that was meant to say "further the ideological blow for the more advanced workers came in the form of the COLLAPSE of the USSR and............"

Back to topic.

I've recently chatted with OI3 (he may be an asshole, but we agree on politics) a bit and we had a discussion on CWI/IMT politics and came to the conclusion that essentially there are no differences. The differences appear to be focused on tactics, rather than analysis and stances.

Sure, there are some myths on both sides of the fence, for example:
CWI: "the IMT is completely pro-Chavez"
IMT: "the CWI thinks that they are the new workers party"
I too believed these myths (on the CWI side of course) for quite a while. Now that I've started reading the In Defence of Marxism website, I'm wondering.

So I've come around a bit on this matter and wonder if there are actually any real non-tactical differences between the two currents and if not, if we shouldn't be working much closer together, at least in countries like for example Germany (where we both work in Die Linke) and the USA (where we both do independant work).

We can work together in the countires like Germany and Venezuela(though we have our differences on this one). But in Britain for example it would be difficult at best as they still work within the Labour party an approach we completely reject. It's only a tactical difference but a pretty big one. Though it does seem as though the IMT have turned work in the Labour party into a principle unlike Militant Tenedency which always saw work in the Labour party as tactic. Though on individual campiagns where we agree I'm sure that we can work with them as we work with other groups.

I actually think it is quite absurd that two organisations with the same politics, analysis and organisation structure exist at all. What is the point of having two organisations internationally, if we're standing for the same? This unnecessarily weakens our forces.

As for the UK (and Belgium is another example), I agree the tactical difference is big, but still this doesn't justify weakening our forces by setting up an entirely new organisation, in my opinion.

While I too agree that the IMT and CWI should and could collaborate more, this is complicated. Tactical diffrences matter, you see. Also, our diffrence in tactics ultimatly does flow from a diffrent analysis of the late 80's and particulary the post-1991 period.
I mean the split between CWI and IMT is over 15 years old. If you see a path to reconciliation I am all for, it's just that I don't particulary see it.

While I too agree that the IMT and CWI should and could collaborate more, this is complicated. Tactical diffrences matter, you see.

You have a point. But my point is that also there where we have the same tactics, we are two different organisations. That is absurd. So, the whole need for two international organisations is beyond me. This brings me back to there where we do have tactical differences, doesn't it make much more sense to have one organisation, with two different factions based around the tactical differences as it were?

Well, as I said in my edit, the diffrent tactics ultimatly both flow from and create diffrent analysis of the current situation. you should take a peek into the "which affiliation is yours"-thread, where I and paulc are debating teis.

I'm talking about Europe here really obvioulsy

Well I don't know about Britain but I would say that in Denmark and many other european countries consciousness is pretty high and has led to a massive number of strikes, it hasn't led to people moving towards the smallest left parties, but that however doesn't mean people aren't conscious

Well I don't know about Britain but I would say that in Denmark and many other european countries consciousness is pretty high and has led to a massive number of strikes, it hasn't led to people moving towards the smallest left parties, but that however doesn't mean people aren't conscious

You are correct in the sense that on the continent class conscousness has revived somwwhat since the turn of the century, this has manifested itself in the setting up of parties like Die Links, Communist Refoundation, Syriza, the New Anti-capitalist party etc. But class consciousness has still not recovered to the level it was at before the 90's. As I said levels of consciousness will always vary from country to country. In Britain there is still an extremly low level as the British w/c has always been a bit conservative so we do tend to lag behind the rest of Europe interms of our development, hence the w/c in the UK don't have a mass party yet. Though like in Europe the anounts of industrial disputes per has gone up since the turn of the century and as working people are made to pay for the present crisis we will probably see a growing level of class consciousness.