which affiliation is yours

A bit late to the thread, but I'm in the CWI.

While undoubtedly an impressive and heartening victory; one MEP will achieve little. The Socialist Party has made relatively significant gains over the past decade or so in Ireland but beyond Joe Higgins' individual success it has failed to harness mass working class support. The swing to the left by many workers and poor people has been soaked up by Labour, squeezing out Sinn Féin. Unless effective opposition to Labour's right-wing leadership can be mounted they will lead these workers and poor people straight into a Fine Gael-led coalition government, with inevitably disastrous results for all concerned.

Certainly, and that effective opposition is what we are trying to do, by calling for a new worker's party and an alternative to Labour. As you say the SP itself does not currently have the mass of membership or support to become "the" massparty, however we certainly have the possibility and momentum to start a serious campaign together with other socialists and struggling community activists. By clearly challenging Labour and SF's rightwing policies I think this is possible.

IMT sympathizer.

IMT sympathizer.

Woo, same as me! I'm hoping to join once I get established in my new town.

Ex SWP, with CPGB(PCC) sympathy's

USFI, for me.

Don't see many of you guys, which is strange given that you're the biggest (?) Trotskyist international around.

Yes, it seems that CWI and IMT are most common in this community. Can't say why so few of us are here. But it's not unfamiliar with me regarding the fact that we are very small in Germany and especially in the east, where I live.

So what Trotskyist groups have a presence in the east of Germany then ?

Spartacist Canada youth league/ International Communist Leage

I never liked the term "troskyist" by the way, because it indicates that trotsky developed some special way of political thought, different from marxism in the tradition of lenin. I'd prefer to call myself just "revolutionary marxist" and clarify, that this tradition includes Leon Trotsky as an important thinker and protagonist.

Well, I prefer calling myself a Marxist as well but when it is necessary to clarify I'll happily call myself a Trotskyist. I know some people who hate doing that out of principle because they think that when you call yourself a Leninist or Trotskyist you are adhering to a person rather than an ideology. Then you have to explain to them that these persons stood for Marxism and the only reason you called yourself that was to clarify your positions on issues.

For example, when I tell a random person I'm a Marxist they usually start asking me about the Soviet Union and "Communism". I can argue that the USSR was a degenerated workers' state or state-capitalist and explain why I believe that to be the case, or I can just say that I'm a Trotskyist and most people will get it.

It's a pretty easy way to tell someone; "Yeah, I think Stalin was a reactionary piece of shit too, so you can't attack me on that."

Yeah, I agree with that. Also, I wasn't referring to you when I mentioned the adhering to a person argument. I actually know a person who uses that argument...while he has no problems with calling himself a Marxist.

I don't think it's purely a coincidence that the person I was referring to is also a petty-bourgeois Uni student.

I'm a supporter of the ICFI. There are things in their line I don't agree with, or least am not sure that I agree with. But I agree with most of their more controversial position (SWP-USA = riddled with cops, AFL-CIO = company union, China =/= workers' state) Let the shit storm begin...

I know I'm Johnny Come Lately on this thread but there were a couple things that seriously made me lolz out of my chair:

1) ISO, IMT, and CWI members snarking at each other about who is most reformist.
2) Trotskyists who don't think Trotsky contributed anything specific to Marxism outside of Leninism. Um... Transitional Program? Fourth International? Permanent Revolution (which Lenin rejected and was later won to)? Analysis of the class character of the Soviet Union?

im CWI

My sympathies have shifted from the IMT to CWI.

My sympathies have shifted from the IMT to CWI.

Welcome to the Dark Side

Welcome to the Dark Side

Thanks.

Thanks.

So, are you going to join the SP in Ireland, or still watching things from the sidelines a bit?

So, are you going to join the SP in Ireland, or still watching things from the sidelines a bit?

I've applied to join.

I've applied to join.

USFI. Honestly, I'd love to be in all of them except the ISO, whose status I don't even take seriously in the leftist movement at all. This Fourth International division just pisses me off. UNITE!!!! >:-(

2) Trotskyists who don't think Trotsky contributed anything specific to Marxism outside of Leninism. Um... Transitional Program? Fourth International? Permanent Revolution (which Lenin rejected and was later

If this is in reference to me, that is not the case at all and I totally agree with you. I just prefer to call myself "Bolshevik" or "communist" instead of even Marxist, Leninist, Trotskyist, etc. not because I value them less (these are my heroes) but just to avoid cult of personality.

My sympathies have shifted from the IMT to CWI.

Hah. I was actually waiting for this. Glad to have you with us, comrade.

USFI. Honestly, I'd love to be in all of them except the ISO, whose status I don't even take seriously in the leftist movement at all. This Fourth International division just pisses me off. UNITE!!!! >:-(

Unite for unity?

Hah. I was actually waiting for this. Glad to have you with us, comrade.

I feel like Anakin Skywalker. Just couldn't resist.

International Communist League/Spartacist League
They expose the falsehoods Stalinism
http://www.icl-fi.org/english/icldop/index.html

I think the IMT has a more correct perspective than the CWI and that has manifested itself with the gains of the IMT in revolutionary or pre-revolutionary situations such as in Venezuela and Pakistan.

Given the gusto with which comment like these have been made on various internet forums over the past couple of years by members and supporters of the IMT - is anyone else struck by the necessity to be a little conditional in statements that are made.

In Ireland in particular our ideas that the working class will put on trial their organization and they would try to transform them is nowadays is really happening, with the working class are moving towards the labour

Interesting quote for two reasons -
1. The working class is not moving towards 'labour' - Labour and Fine Gael are picking up anti-government votes simply by being in opposition and being the potentially alternative government. There has been no increase in the LP membership and no increase in their activity on the ground. In government, and they will be, the Labour Party are going to implement the most vicious anti-working class measures that have ever been seen in theis country - and there is unlikely to be a single dissenting voice within the party.

2. How does this square with the flirtation by the IMT with the IRSP - as late as this week the IMT have an article by Gerry Ruddy on their website. Is the IMT now going to try and convince us that the IRSP has been the mass party of the working class all along - and how does this square with 'labour'

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Sorry but it's hard to take serious from an organisation that never have cared to explain how the traditional workers parties were somewhat enmass and from what seems day to day transformed into bourgious parties in the 90'ies.

I will give you a specific example from my own experience - and it demonstrated it all too clearly to me at the time.

In 1992 the Labour Party in Ireland was on a high - they had just won 33 seats in a general election (their best result ever) and, after spending years attacking Fianna Fail, turned around and joined them in coalition. I attended the Labour Party Conference in 1992 in Waterford. The Conference was packed about 1,500 delegates.

The most stark speech while I was there was given by a woman named Ann Gallagher - she had recent stood unsuccessfully for the Labour Party in the General Election. She stated - and I quote -
"when I joined the Labour Party it was full of trade unionists and workers - but all that has changed now - we got rid of them and now we have doctors, solicitors, accountants and businessmen and women".

She got a standing ovation and I got up and walked out never to return.[/FONT]