If Che wasn't a Martyr...

**TheGranma** · 8th December 2001, 23:31

Do you think this is true? What would Che's view be of are time's events? What part would he be playing in world events and most importantly, how bad would the media dismissal of him be!?

**gogo gomez** · 11th December 2001, 00:14

i dont see him as a martyr really but as a leader, a person who was committed to his purpose. could it be that most people who give themselves in this way see themselves as unstopable till the death. he knew the task at hand was tremendeous yet he embraced it as being the only life he had.

to imagine what he would be like today is only to close your eyes and envision che through his writings, teachings and books. i remember reading one book where he mentions a great sadness. knowing he would die before he could see things come full circle but that his song would carry on! indeed it has!

**Avamatha** · 11th December 2001, 14:30

I've been thinking that and I've come to this:
Maybe he wouldn't be so...umm... Well, you couldn't find him from every t-shirts. (btw, why there aren't any about Fidel?)

Though, if he would be still alive as a person, maybe he would have done lots of big things, from wich we would know him about.

Nobody'll never know...

**Capitalist** · 12th December 2001, 02:54

I'm happy he is dead.

The American CIA and Bolivian Army did quite a good job.

Long Live the CIA!

Long Live the USA!

Long Live Miami and the Real Cuban Spirit!

Long Live American Capitalism and Democracy!

Long Live Che GueVara's hands in a jar of Formadehyde!

Guest1 · 12th December 2001, 03:03

Well, obviously your Capitalist schooling hasn't done you much good... it's formaldehyde.

Besides, I thought you were one of those more sane (relatively speaking) Capitalists. You know why they killed him, rather than arrest him? Two reasons:

1. The People would have rioted
2. They knew they couldn't execute him, he did nothing wrong

**Optimus Prime** · 12th December 2001, 03:06

I thought Caplist was for Revolution and Reform not Revolution and Revenge. Finding it funny Che's hands were amputated

**MJM** · 12th December 2001, 07:05

In a way it's good that he died handsome and youthful, he's now a beakon and sybol for freedom and equality.

**booga** · 12th December 2001, 19:28

Quote: from Capitalist on 3:54 am on Dec. 12, 2001
I'm happy he is dead.

The American CIA and Bolivian Army did quite a good job.

Long Live the CIA!

Long Live the USA!

Long Live Miami and the Real Cuban Spirit!

Long Live American Capitalism and Democracy!

Long Live Che GueVara's hands in a jar of Formadehyde!

well capitalist you certainly portay the u.s. american spirit, no doubt. im reading a book on u.s. constitution and it describes the cia's role in america and it is tremendous. it did mention the "bay of pigs" and che which i found interesting...so anyway did you know the cia has the mission to protect the world from a world nuclear holocaust? too bad they couldnt stop hitler (its too bad that the demon shot himself, such a cowardly act!)

by the way do you wear chino's or dockers?

**juventus10** · 14th December 2001, 02:16

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 4:03 am on Dec. 12, 2001
Well, obviously your Capitalist schooling hasn't done you much good... it's formaldehyde.

Besides, I thought you were one of those more sane (relatively speaking) Capitalists. You know why they killed him, rather than arrest him? Two reasons:

1. The People would have rioted
2. They knew they couldn't execute him, he did nothing wrong

they would not have rioted because they did not want him in the first place. his execution was orderd(though no one addmitted that)

**Optimus Prime** · 14th December 2001, 20:03

Capitalist is an ignorant prick. You can tell that he knows nothing of what the CIA has done through out the world. And just for you all to know Capitalist esta hablando Cubano (come mierda)

**El Commandante** · 14th December 2001, 21:52

Quote: from Che y Marijuana on 4:03 am on Dec. 12, 2001
Well, obviously your Capitalist schooling hasn't done you much good... it's formaldehyde.

Besides, I thought you were one of those more sane (relatively speaking) Capitalists. You know why they killed him, rather than arrest him? Two reasons:

1. The People would have rioted
2. They knew they couldn't execute him, he did nothing wrong

The CIA got a drunk prison guard to do it, the first time he went into the cell che stared him out and he was scared senseless. The second time the guard went in the man was still scared so che said: "shoot coward, you're only going to kill a man" or something along those lines. A truely brave man, shows the true nature of the CIA, cowards the lot of them.

**Capitalist** · 14th December 2001, 22:25

I never stated that revenge is wrong.

Revenge is sweet.

HOWEVER, I believe that Revolution based soley on Revenge is dangerous (example Che's revolution based on United States Hatred).

Does not mean I don't believe in justice - I am happy that Che Guevara met his justice, although I'm sure Che GueVara was happy with the results anyway - he is a false Martyr now.

If a revolution is based on revenge purposes only - it will lead to oppression.

Justice, on the other hand, should always be based on revenge and revealing the sin to the sinner.

Although I am 1/2 Cuban - No hablo espanol muy bien, pero yo comprendo un poco espanol. Actually I barely understand a fucking word of Spanish - if I did know spanish - I would probably be in a Cuban jail by now for trying to start a counter-revolution.

If you think the CIA is bad

What about Fidel Castro's CDR's on every block in Cuba. "Defense for the Revolution" Police - they are everywhere in Cuba. The CDR makes the CIA look like the Mickey Mouse Club.

**Kez** · 15th December 2001, 10:57

Capitalist and juventus, you two are obviously well taught,and must have been good students, as that is how u have been brainwashed.
Plus the fact that u are under yankee propaganda 24/7 you should be an anti-communist, as well as the fact that u dont have any fighting spirit.
Bobby Sands (IRA) once sed before his and during his hunger strike, that with his death, he would fuel the irish struggle for another 10 years. and it did.
With Che's murder, its going to fuel the revolution till the end of the revolution.

Unite&Fight
comrade kamo

**Optimus Prime** · 15th December 2001, 15:41

Well let me say something about the CIA. There was once a very brave and influential man that was Puerto Rico. He wanted to gain independence for Puerto Rico back in 1920 to 1940 something. His name was Don Pedro Albizu Campos. He was an extremely well educated man that studied law in Harvard as well as chemistry. He was the first president of the Indepedent party. He wasn't a communist mind you but a man that wanted to see his country be free. The United States hated him!! So they made up stories about him and what not. One day some Puerto Rican nationalist that belonged to Camposes party went to Washington and tried to assasinate Truman. They blamed Campos for what happen which was utter bullshit. It would like be saying lets throuhg President Bush in Jail because he's the Head of the Republican party and some registered Republican commited murder. It wasn't fair. So they incarcerated Campos. But his pain didn't stop there. In jail they performed radiation testing on him that led to cancer. The US denied it but independent doctors aaround the world got a chance to see him and they concluded that he had been put through several radiation tests. He died.
Also until the 80's Puerto Ricans were not allowed to have Puerto Rican flags. If you did they automatically give you a CIA file. One day my Uncle, who at the time was in his late teens-early twenties, put a small little Puerto Rican flag in his window. A government official called my Grand father, who were friends and advised him to tell his son to take it out because the Government would do something. And they did. They sent some CIA people to my Uncles house and tried to start some shit because he loved his Country.

(Edited by Optimus Prime at 4:42 pm on Dec. 15, 2001)

**Kez** · 22nd December 2001, 14:39

I dont like saying this but the people of Puerto Rico are fools, if they wanted the yankee imperialists out, to stop bombing the fuck outta the nation they love, then why not protest?
lazy beggars.
I f they all united, not even the USA would be able to stop them

comrade kamo

**Optimus Prime** · 22nd December 2001, 17:35

Lazy beggers? Shows how much you know. We do protest and we do it often and in HUGE numbers. The problem is none of you people see it because the amount of coverage you get here in the states is very little or any where else in the world. I was watching CNN a couple of months ago about the Vieques problem and they didn't know shit about the problem.

Valkyrie · 22nd December 2001, 20:51

"Bobby Sands (IRA) once sed before his and during his hunger strike, that with his death, he would fuel the irish struggle for another 10 years. and it did."
---

Kamo, Yes!!!

Bobby Sands --- a very exceptional, extraordianary Irish comrade,a true martyr to the cause of Irish Freedom and anti-imperialism, and unacclaimed poet, who died at age 27, on hungerstrike, an elected member of British Parliament, and so-called IRA terrorist, in a British Jail, for fighting against Britian occupied Northern Ireland.

In honor of the late great Bobby Sands (1954-1981) who spent his whole adult life in prison, and never doubted his cause was wrong, I would like to reprint this poem:

The Rhythm of Time

There's an inner thing in every man,
Do you know this thing my friend?
It has withstood the blows of a million years,
And will do so to the end.

It was born when time did not exist,
And it grew up out of life,
It cut down evil's strangling vines
Like a slashing searing knife.

It lit fires when fires were not,
And burnt the mind of man,
Tempering leadened hearts to steel,
From the time that time began.

It wept by the waters of Babylon,
And when all men were a loss,
I screeched in writhing agony,
And it hung bleeding from the Cross.

It did in Rome by lion and sword,
And in defiant cruel array,
When the deathly word was "Spartacus",
Along the Appian Way.

It marches with Wat the Tyler's poor,
and frieghtened lord and king,
And it was emblazoned in their deathly stare,
As e're a living thing.

It smiled in holy innocence,
Before conquistadors of old,
So meek and tame and unaware,
Of the deathly power of gold.

It burst forth throught pitiful Paris streets,
And stormed the old Bastille,
And marched upon the serpent's head,
And crushed it 'neath its heel.

It died in blood in Buffalo Plains,
And starved by moons of rain,
It's heart was buried in Wounded Knee,
But it will come to rise again.

It screamed aloud by Kerry lakes,
As it was knelt upon the ground,
And it died in great defiance,
As they coldly shot it down.

It is found in every light of hope,
It knows no bounds or space,
It has risen in red and black and white,
It is there in every race.

It lies in the hearts of heroes dead,
It screams in tyrants' eyes,
It as reached the peak of mountains high,
It comes searing 'cross the skies.

It light the dark of this prison cell,
It thunders forth its might,
It is "the undauntable thought', my friend,
That thought that says "I'm right!"

~ Bobby Sands, MP (1954-1981)

(Edited by Paris at 9:57 pm on Dec. 22, 2001)

Guest1 · 25th December 2001, 09:20

Wow... I like that poem.

Anyway, Kamo, don't call them lazy. The Palestinian people have been revolting for a century now, first against Britain, then against Israel. Until the 1970's the outside world didn't even know we existed, let alone we were revolting. Up until the eighties it was illegal to show a Palestinian flag in Israel. I don't think it is in anyway their fault they haven't succeeded yet. Don't blame the victim.

**Optimus Prime** · 25th December 2001, 17:56

He says that the Puerto Ricans are lazy beggars, not the Palestinians.

**pce** · 25th December 2001, 19:55

going back to the initial question, i don't think che would be idolized as he is now if he wasn't a martyr. if he was alive, he would have done many things that people would argue about and disagree on. martyrdom hides a person's beliefs in a mask of legend and folklore. everyone can put their ideals into a martyr's and what imerges is an ideal which is different to each person who is idolizing. in effect, the che that one person idolizes is a different one than the one anyone else does. as a result, more people admire him (rather their own interpretaion of him) than they really do because everyone doesn't admire him, they admire what they have made of him in their minds. if che was alive (or had died of natural causes) much more of his actions would be plain fact so that this room for interpretation wouldn't exist. hence he wouldn't have as many followers.

what i'm basically trying to say is that the people who follow che don't really follow him, they follow their own ideal of him. this is the result of martyrdom.

i hope i made sense

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