Your vote doesn't count

[Charles Xavier]

By losing bourgeois elections?

No, we show our "power and influence" by organising outside the facade and showing it for what it really is; a sham!



Which are entirely up the individual voter in question, as I remember. What business is it of the Left?

I don't know about you but I don't want to die in absolute poverty and face increased police repression. I will vote for reforms and rely on revolution.

The political process is crooked, irrespective of the candidates. By the very act of voting -- regardless of whom it is for -- one is tacitly buying into the idea that the system of elections can change the status quo. And thus one is helping to legitimise the very order one wants to demolish. The electoral system is part of the very status quo it pretends to have the power to change: an inherent contradiction. Thus I knew from day one that Obama's talk of hope and change was all bull****. Real power has to be seized by violent means. Those who have real power will not willingly part with it, and will keep changing the rules to see they keep what they have.

Didn't voting change the status quo in Ecuador, Bolivia, Venezuela and Nicaragua?

Don't get me wrong I have no illusions that bourgeioisie democracy is bourgeioisie rule. But I prefer things to be better rather than worse. I prefer a democrat to a republican, a liberal to a conservative. I have no illusions thinking they are very different but different enough to make one better than the other.

[marxist578]

Why do some people have to be haters?? Do you think I actually care what you think? No. If you think this forum is wrong for me, then too bad, because I'm going to stay. Remember, I don't care what you think .

Anyways, to the majority of the posters who were civilized in their posts and understood what I meant, thanks!

A revolution will never be able to come through voting and elections, because like I said, your vote counts for NOTHING. The people must take action, and remove these capitalist pigs from power.

[Charles Xavier]

Why do some people have to be haters?? Do you think I actually care what you think? No. If you think this forum is wrong for me, then too bad, because I'm going to stay. Remember, I don't care what you think .

Anyways, to the majority of the posters who were civilized in their posts and understood what I meant, thanks!

A revolution will never be able to come through voting and elections, because like I said, your vote counts for NOTHING. The people must take action, and remove these capitalist pigs from power.

Well a revolution is not one big battle with guns and bayonets, a revolution is a long series of struggle of the working class. Parliamentary struggle should not be out of the question despite its limitations.

I understand you are a very rousing speech maker, looking at how you bold your words to emphasis a point and then telling people to take action and leaving it up to them on the means.

Very convincing nonetheless, voting has brought revolutionaries and trade unionists into power in the past and in the present, we should not reject parliamentary struggle, despite its limitations, and one should not hold illusions that it will create dynamic change, especially not in the imperialist world were the top half of the labour movement is bought off from being in a labour aristocratic position.

Obama is the new salesman of US Imperialism.

[fabiansocialist]

Didn't voting change the status quo in Ecuador, Bolivia, Venezuela and Nicaragua?

In Nicaragua, insurrection led by the Sandanistas led to the toppling of the corrupt Somoza regime, which had been rigging elections for decades. As for Venezuela, the same BMWs and Porsches are still too be found in Caracas. Chavez has publicised some cosmetic measures for the poor.... Let's see if Evo Morales is any good. What happens through the electoral system is that someone -- say a Brazilian Lula -- gets elected by the popular vote as being a "progressive," or a populist -- and then shows his true colors. The electoral system is complicit in this. Lenin, Mao, and Castro didn't play by these rigged rules.

[Charles Xavier]

In Nicaragua, insurrection led by the Sandanistas led to the toppling of the corrupt Somoza regime, which had been rigging elections for decades. As for Venezuela, the same BMWs and Porsches are still too be found in Caracas. Chavez has publicised some cosmetic measures for the poor.... Let's see if Evo Morales is any good. What happens through the electoral system is that someone -- say a Brazilian Lula -- gets elected by the popular vote as being a "progressive," or a populist -- and then shows his true colors. The electoral system is complicit in this. Lenin, Mao, and Castro didn't play by these rigged rules.

You've proven my point though, these guys did create positive development for working people.


Lenin and Castro did participate in bourgeioisie elections. And Lenin and Castro post revolution continued to participate in elections.

[fabiansocialist]

Well a revolution is not one big battle with guns and bayonets, a revolution is a long series of struggle of the working class. Parliamentary struggle should not be out of the question despite its limitations.

These are pragmatic words, and ones which I can't object to: workers and peasants have to use whatever instruments they have at their disposal. But they shouldn't have false expectations about what the electoral system can deliver -- which is not much, as it's just an empty shell. Real power resides elsewhere. That's all I have to say. And I shall continue not to vote.

[marxist578]

Well a revolution is not one big battle with guns and bayonets, a revolution is a long series of struggle of the working class. Parliamentary struggle should not be out of the question despite its limitations.

I understand you are a very rousing speech maker, looking at how you bold your words to emphasis a point and then telling people to take action and leaving it up to them on the means.

Very convincing nonetheless, voting has brought revolutionaries and trade unionists into power in the past and in the present, we should not reject parliamentary struggle, despite its limitations, and one should not hold illusions that it will create dynamic change, especially not in the imperialist world were the top half of the labour movement is bought off from being in a labour aristocratic position.

Obama is the new salesman of US Imperialism.

I agree with some of what you said, but I only bolded my words simply to make a point. Of course I have to leave it up to them on the means. What am I going to do, go tell all the capitalist sheeple that we must fight our evil, imperialist oppressors? Since you like to criticize, I'll let you go do that.

Obama has mentioned he is going to completely disarm the United States. How could he be the next salesman of US Imperialism if he is going to disarm the US of it's nukes, missile defense systems, cut billions of dollars in military spending, and pull out of Iraq? Everyone knows the war in Iraq is all for oil.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Why do some people have to be haters?? Do you think I actually care what you think? No. If you think this forum is wrong for me, then too bad, because I'm going to stay. Remember, I don't care what you think .

That's the spirit!

[Revy]

You can't start a revolution with your tiny guerrilla army. I think the eccentric Symbionese Liberation Army tried that and failed miserably. No, real revolutionaries understand the role that elections and politics plays in society and why it is necessary and important for socialists to put themselves forward in that context, to raise socialist consciousness and thus kickstart a real revolution.

[bruce]

Voting provides an oligarchic and unrepresentative system with the veneer, the patina, of legitimacy and respectability it desires. If 10% of the people voted (instead of 50%), it becomes more difficult to maintain the charade that the US is a democracy, and it becomes more transparent what a crooked, oligarchic, imperialistic, militaristic serf-driven empire it really is. Your playing basketball, on the other hand, confers no legitimacy on the evil empire.

I agree.

I was only attempting to empathize with the viewpoint of others who have not been exposed to the ideas we are familiar with. If the goal is to convince people not to vote, jumping in with both feet into a moral argument is usually a non-starter. Without an understanding of the premises underlying the present 'democracy', all the usual arguments that are obvious to us will fall on deaf ears, or worse, strengthen their current beliefs cuz all this talk of 'imperialism' or 'corporatism' sounds crazy.

Small steps IMO

[lombas]

It is a sad fact that ruling elites decide major trendsettings and have the resources to make people follow them. This is, of course, why dictatorship of the proletariat is such a realistic term for what is necessary to break all ties with bourgeois class-oriented elitism.

[Charles Xavier]

I agree with some of what you said, but I only bolded my words simply to make a point. Of course I have to leave it up to them on the means. What am I going to do, go tell all the capitalist sheeple that we must fight our evil, imperialist oppressors? Since you like to criticize, I'll let you go do that.

Obama has mentioned he is going to completely disarm the United States. How could he be the next salesman of US Imperialism if he is going to disarm the US of it's nukes, missile defense systems, cut billions of dollars in military spending, and pull out of Iraq? Everyone knows the war in Iraq is all for oil.

And Obama is a liar and has appointed Zionists and Imperialist War Mongers the right-wing of his party into his cabinet. Will Obama get out of Iraq? Well not according to recent recantations from the election.

[xtremerebel]

And Obama is a liar and has appointed Zionists and Imperialist War Mongers the right-wing of his party into his cabinet. Will Obama get out of Iraq? Well not according to recent recantations from the election.

I was looking through the archives in the politics section and saw this.

Just to update, the U.S. has now pulled out of Iraqi cities and urban areas, and have handed that portion over to the Iraqi security forces. They call on the U.S. when they need to though, and the U.S. still patrols the borders and mountainous areas of Iraq. They are expected to leave in around 2011.

That being said, we all know that companies such as Haliburton profited big time off of Iraqi oil fields. If Obama is indeed a zionist war mongerer, then don't you think he would still be in Iraq? Or is this simply a political move for something bigger in Iraq?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

You're telling me. One of my friends identifies with anarchism, but he's convinced that the reason why conditions are so shitty for people down here, in one of the poorest counties in the US, if not the poorest, is because they don't go out and vote, and thus the government thinks "eh, these people don't give a shit, so they can go fuck themselves". So if people went out and voted, he claims, the government would take notice, and do something about the conditions here.

Of course, it's most likely the other way around - the government doesn't give a shit about the people, so the people don't give a shit about voting. Simple as that. But he stubbornly holds on to this notion.

I agree with him in a sense. Many people simply don't view the government as something that can help them, instead it's a far away entity that never changes and which they have no control over. But seriously, at a very local level, it wouldn't be completely implausible to shake things up.

Usually its the right that elects radicals at the local level however. When I was living in Dallas, the suburb of Farmers Branch elected some crazy ass anti-immigrant type who promised to run every illegal out of their homes. Naturally all the Hispanics, by and large, documented or not, relocated immediately because of the racist hysteria and the city's economy has gone to the shitter. But it can be done, is my point.

Will it really change anything? Probably not, but I for one would love to be the campaign manager of a "Freak Power" run.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Oh, and another thing. TheHumanCondition has a point, the SLA failed miserably. I believe it makes sense to at least attempt to create an electoral party, based on grass roots economic alternatives to the capitalist system (yeah we'd all love a national party to sweep us off our feet but let's be realistic). And lets say this party gains somewhat.

Why not wait until that avenue is closed and people realize exactly who they're confronting before attempting to overthwrow the system via Revolution? If the people, and that is of course a general term, can't get past what the talking heads on their TV tell them, how can one expect a popular revolutionary movement of real significance to emerge? They may think its a sham, why not force the issue and make the ruling classes end the illusion and show us it's a load of bull?

And I understand several groups are attempting what I have suggested, but is there a true alternative available during the largest capitalist crisis in decades?

[theusedfire5]

You can't start a revolution with your tiny guerrilla army. I think the eccentric Symbionese Liberation Army tried that and failed miserably. No, real revolutionaries understand the role that elections and politics plays in society and why it is necessary and important for socialists to put themselves forward in that context, to raise socialist consciousness and thus kickstart a real revolution.

"I began revolution with 82 men. If I had to do it again, I do it with 10 or 15 and absolute faith. It does not matter how small you are if you have faith and plan of action". - Fidel Castro


Just saying that I have learned people tend to follow what's already there. They wait until something better comes along, then they join that crowd. The majority usually runs along the sheep metaphor, Which leads me to this quote:

"The revolution is not an apple that falls when it is ripe. You have to make it fall". - Ernesto Che Guevara


All it takes is timing, planning, and essentially popular views.

[Sam_b]

Was it really necessary to resurrect a thread that hasn't been posted in for almost a year?

[Tyrlop]

wake up! as it was said before.

[theusedfire5]

Was it really necessary to resurrect a thread that hasn't been posted in for almost a year?

It doesn't make a difference

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Was it really necessary to resurrect a thread that hasn't been posted in for almost a year?

Was this post necessary, in the slightest?

Ideas and material, if found to be valuable to some, don't have an expiration date. Please delete your post and allow the discussion to go forth uninhibited.