how good was che compared to lenin??

[filimarxist]

che is a martyr, he died early on in his life fighting for his cause, he is for the lack of a better word, a hero, he also died in a humble state, while suffering in the jungles of bolivia with his troops, also, the korda photo makes him look so enigmatic a lot of people wonder who is that guy, that's why they get into researching che's stuff, i know that's how i did. lenin had contributed more in terms of theory, but che was a louder voice for the revolution, in his ashes various revolutionary movements rose in latin america, ironic huh, the cia killed him to stop the spread of those exact same movements.

[Markxs]

che was not a hero he never wanted to be one, he was also not a leader but a servant because he died for his ppl. leaders dont die just followers.......

no heros

-A-



(Edited by Markxs at 3:36 am on Aug. 7, 2001)

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Markxs on 2:35 am on Aug. 7, 2001
che was not a hero he never wanted to be one, he was also not a leader but a servant because he died for his ppl. leaders dont die just followers.......

no heros

(Edited by Markxs at 3:36 am on Aug. 7, 2001)

i agree with you Markxs. i think that is evident in his leaving Cuba to start revolutions in the rest of latin america, china and cuba. he was determined to help the people free themselves from capitalism etc. he's not a hero because he didn't free people, he helped them free themselves.

[pce]

i think what filimarxist ment by calling che a "hero" is not that he viewed himself as one, but that that's what PEOPLE viewed him as after his death (hence "che is a martyr") i'm sure che didn't plan on becoming a martyr, people just think of him that way.......as apposed to lenin who is viewed as someone who helped create communism as we know it today

[paris.]

Che was hero and martyr, leader and servant, all of these things and more -- the epitome of the rarest of human beings -- he was an unadultered selfless idealist to the end. He's definetely a hero by my standard of the word.



(Edited by Valkyrie at 6:59 am on Aug. 8, 2001)

[filimarxist]

thanks for the clear up pce that's exactly what i meant

[Discipulo]

Going back to the Lenin-Guevara comparison, I belive that Che practiced a much purer brand of communism. Shortly after the triumph of the Russian Revolution of 1917, Lenin had to abandon his tax-in-kind in favor of the New Economic Policy. Basically it was a step back towards capitalism, returning proprietorships to their previous owners and allowing other types of individual trade. Lenin and later Stalin also gave in to material recompensation and incentive for workers as opposed to Che's policy of moral incentive. You may want to look into the details to find out more, but I prefer Che's theory and philosophy to that of Lenin.

HLVS,
CDG

[versus]

Another good differentiation between the two was that while Lenin intentionally had innocent people executed Che revised his sentences carefully and under his watch no one died who didn't deserve to. The people who Che committed to the firing squad were torturers, testicle extractors, finger nail pullers, rapists, murderers of the former regime, and of course that traitor that Che killed himself when the former had confessed to his treacherous act.

[Son of Scargill]

I know this is an old post,but it is still a good question.To me,Lenin was a faithful Communist.he wanted to Emancipate the working classes,but realised that total communism wouldn't happen overnight,the bourgeoisie would have to be assimilated(sorry,bit Trekkie that!)piece by piece into the working class.Lenin was a capable politician who understood that communism couldn't survive in the sea of capitalism(and vice-versa),whereas Che wanted to stir up the seas of the Capitalists.His idea of America having to fight wars on dozens of fronts,at the same time is classic militarist theory.Revolution needs both these characters.Unfortunately,as in the Russian revolution,the more anarchic forces,like Che,may have been a threat to the more conservative(?)members of the revolution(in Cuba).
Both visions are important to Humankind,Neither can exist together in a perfect world(?)But both need to exist!
Human Nature;We need a degree of certainty,but we also need a degree of risk and uncertainty.Lenin one,Che the other.Mao believed in continual revolution,but revolution just for the sake of revolution,doesn't seem the answer to me.We need a balance.Che and Fidel looked a good one!
Sorry for rambling on.

[sabre]

I think Che was WAY better than Lenin because Che has more revolutionary symbolism and Lenin didn't die as a Martyr like Che.

[Son of Scargill]

I agree with what you say regarding Che's personality,or charisma,Truly inspirational,a hero in anybodys eyes.But as a day to day politician you must agree he was a bit of a disaster.Inspiring dissent and revolution was his thing,what he was good at.But there's no point in revolution if you don't improve the lot of the people that the revolution has intended to free.That's why I say you need both types of character to have a succesful revolt.....But Che was definately way cooler than Lenin!

[Karo Chevez]

I read in the posts how that Che didnt want to be a leader,however,once he had entered Bolivia and made
contact with the local rebels he stated plainly to the
then leader,I am to be chief(leader) which at once caused resentment and disorder to boil underneath the
surface.While in the jungle Che was forced to make
contact with civillians due to sick and injured comrades
which proved to be fatal.To compare Lenin and Che I
find curious and odd,Lenin was a theoretician and an
expert propagandist who secreted himself in and out
of Russia during the early stages of the revolution,he
gave command of the red army to Leon Trotsky who
proved to be a very capable commander,yet Lenin himself chose to act in a clandestine manner shuffling
between Switzerland and Russia until the Bolsheviks
had secured the front.Che on the other hand was not
only a theoretician but a combatant as well,he not only
inspired others to fight,he himself chose to risk his own
life as well in the field.Simone De Beauvior wrote that
it is not in giving life but in risking life that humans are
raised above the animals.Though I prefer not to quote
from the fabled book of the Christians I find a passage
appropriate in the present context,No greater love has
a man than this,that a man would lay down his life for
his friends".Che was a man who gave himself completely
to socialism,he saw injustice and tried to make things
right,one cannot truly champion the rights of others lest
he has an abiding love for humanity.Lenin was the first
to promote the transition of theory into practice by means of armed revolution,Che not only promoted revolution,he took an active part in that revolution.-Karo

[Guest]

Red Donna. Che Guevara was born into a "bourgeois" family, but, (unlike all other bourgeois families at the time) they were prepared to help the poor and not believe themselvesas superior. Che grew up with working class boys and, at one time in his life, was even best-friends with an Italian Fascist. Che has become famous, I believe, not for his socialism, but for his charismatic love of his ideals and the romanticising of the cause. Che changed the concept of revoilution into something beautiful were one shows true love for ones comrades. Che was preobably more of a Troskyte than a Stalinist, and efinetly favored China over the USSR (understandably) His socialism was a more revolutionary one than the Soviets and this scared the Soviets, who largely withdrew support. His reason for downfal was the same as his rise to fame. He mixed political policies with emotion, something which made him popular but also made him fail. He was driven by self-example and talked of a "new socialist morality" in which people work in unity "working to ability and getting paid to need", he worked in Havana docks (in a stage in his life) 20hrs a day 6 days a week and did volunteer labor on Sunday, as well as being chief-prosecutor, chief of tax (hacienda) a general in the army and the man behind economical instigation. He was due a salary of $2000 a month for his labor, of which, he only took $350. I hope this has given you an idea of what Che was like.

Adrian Bua

"True courage is shown when one seeks the ideal and does not conform with reality" Cervantes

"Imperialism has led the world to believe that peaceful coexistence is the exclusive right of the great powers of earth" Che Guevara

[Capitalist]

They both were the same.

Men of hatred.

[Kez]

Thats it, lets boot capitalist, he cant even debate for fucks sake, i mean what the fuck is he doing here?

Malte boot him man.
comrade kamo

[Freiheit]

any capitalist sucks!

[Son of Scargill]

Hatred is usually born out of oppression and injustice.
Now f**k off Capitalist,you sad little wanker!


(Edited by Son of Scargill at 5:11 am on Dec. 2, 2001)

[Kez]

Che and Lenin were completely different people,
Che was a revolutionary fighter, where his best points were to shoot and strategy in war.
Wheras Lenin was a revolutionary politician, maybe Lenin didnt shoot as many times as Che, but without him we may never of had the USSR, and the tzarist system would of killed so many more people.
Lenin was a genius.
Che was a fighter
Long Live the Spirit of Lenin

comrade kamo