Religion Class

[revolutionary.socialist]

Hey guys I am Atheist and I go to a Catholic School, I have to defend my self in everything i say. Im a Socialist and i always start with heated conversations. Im just wondering how I can make my arguments and shit strong. Some topics we discus is Abortion, Capital Punishment, Homosexuality, Transgender, Artificial semination. How does a Socialist like my self defend my self from all of these right wing conservitive pigs??? Its unbeliveable how narrow minded these people are. I want to use the bible against them.

If anyone has any idea how i can aproch this i would apreciate to hear from you. I know this question may sound retarded but im tiered of being pushed around.

Thanks guys

[Black Sheep]

You can read R.Dawkins' "The God Delusion" and you will be armed to the teeth!
Or watch some youtube videos about the topic (LOTS of them out there)

Abortion:
Mention the woman's right to choose for her life,and that in fact abstinence and condoms are themselves a way of murdering innocent unborn fetuses (and unconceived).
Also in the same logic, abortions after a rape are immoral, or in cases of teratomas and pregnancies gone wrong.

Capital Punishment
I do not think that is an issue that the Revolutionary Left has a standard thesis on.It is up to the situation and the time's ethics.It is up to society itself to decide, not some folks' imaginary friend.

Homosexuality
You will get arguments like 'it is not natural'.And you should agree that it is not, in the same way that surgery,medicine,airplanes,tatoos,haircuts and scratching is not natural.But they help people or people find pleasure in them without causing harm to their fellow man/woman.
But since the only refuge of gay-haters and purgers is eventually 'God's Law', you have to refute the second.


I will leave the rest to other comrades.
Welcome to the forum!

you may also wanna check the religion subforum. clicky: http://www.revleft.com/vb/religion-f38/index.html

oh, and the anti-theist group. clicky: http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-theist-f107/index.html

[Demogorgon]

Point out that the Catholic Church strongly opposes the Death Penalty. That usually shuts up right wing catholics on the subject.

[Black Dagger]

It would help if you explained the arguments they usually throw at you - so we can discuss how best they can be refuted.

But i would also suggest (and this is based merely on the language of the OP) taking a less aggressive, confrontational tone in your responses. You probably have little hope of convincing your most vehement or frequent opponents, but if you'd like to convince others who are less committed to either side it's best if you do not appear arrogant or conceited.
This happens a lot in religious vs. atheist debates (dawkins is a prime example of this). So when you're addressing your opponents, be respectful - use humour in your retorts (but not personal attacks), speak slowly and calmly - try not to make blanket statements about the 'stupidity' or 'idiocy' etc. of your opponents arguments. This can be hard sometimes when dealing with religious arguments because they are so often irrational and obviously unsupported with evidence or even contradictory to other religious arguments! But it is only necessary (and effective) to refute your opponents argument - as mocking or insulting them or their POV may envoke sympathy from others.

[ZeroNowhere]

Read some works on Liberation Theology.

Abortion

Also, you're less likely to die from it than from childbirth (I could dig up some figures if you want).

Capital punishment

1. If you're wrong, it's irreversible. It occasionally is shown to be wrong.
2. Under capitalism, it's more expensive (either that, or more innocents die).

Homosexuality

Are you having any trouble with this debate?

[apathy maybe]

Abortion: Ask them where abortion is actually forbidden in the bible (though Catholics don't only get there crap from that book, unlike others). Look up the life = breath thing that I remember reading about recently (can't remember where though).

Homosexuality: Ask them if they eat shell fish, god hates shell fish. http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/
Not to mention, Jesus came and didn't talk about gay sex at all, but he did say that many of the laws from the old testament are no longer relevant (otherwise, why would people work on a Sunday?).
Also see http://www.sexinchrist.com/threesome.html for a laugh (possibly serious, I am seriously unsure). Lesbianism is fine, not mentioned in the bible.

Capital Punishment: As said above, the Vatican opposes the death penalty in all cases. If they don't follow the Vatican in this case, ask them why they follow it in other cases.

Transgender: Where is this mentioned in the bible?

Artificial semination: Where is this mentioned in the bible?

[ernie]

Hey guys I am Atheist and I go to a Catholic School, I have to defend my self in everything i say. Im a Socialist and i always start with heated conversations. Im just wondering how I can make my arguments and shit strong. Some topics we discus is Abortion, Capital Punishment, Homosexuality, Transgender, Artificial semination. How does a Socialist like my self defend my self from all of these right wing conservitive pigs??? Its unbeliveable how narrow minded these people are. I want to use the bible against them.

If anyone has any idea how i can aproch this i would apreciate to hear from you. I know this question may sound retarded but im tiered of being pushed around.

Thanks guys

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible is a wonderful resource when debating the specifics of the bible.

Homosexuality
You will get arguments like 'it is not natural'.And you should agree that it is not, in the same way that surgery,medicine,airplanes,tatoos,haircuts and scratching is not natural.

No, he shouldn't agree that it's not natural, because it is. Homosexuality arose naturally, without any human intervention; it wasn't invented, like the rest of the things you listed.

[Black Sheep]

No, he shouldn't agree that it's not natural, because it is. Homosexuality arose naturally, without any human intervention; it wasn't invented, like the rest of the things you listed.

Then we have to define what is 'natural'.Is masturbation natural?
-The genitalia's 'purpose' isn't to be fondled around with our hands, but to reproduce the species.
-Our ears are not things on which to hang fancy jewelery but hearing organs.
-Armpit hair and hair generally aren't supposed to be cut, they have a natural function.

All of the above "violate" the natural purpose of their existence.But we don't give a rat's ass.Why should we about homosexuality?

That is my point

[LOLseph Stalin]

Considering I debate with pro-life people alot, I can probably help you on that topic.

You could mention stuff such as rape causing pregnacies and that often the victims may be unfit to look after a child. Also, if they're defending it on biblical grounds you could ask them to prove where it's listed in the bible as "bad". A large majority of the time they won't have the proof. Another argument I like to use is the one about it being a woman's body so she has the right to choose what she wants done with it. I have several other points I could list, but i'm braindead from fatigue at the moment.

[apathy maybe]

Then we have to define what is 'natural'.Is masturbation natural?

Yes.

-The genitalia's 'purpose' isn't to be fondled around with our hands, but to reproduce the species.

It has no purpose actually.

-Our ears are not things on which to hang fancy jewelery but hearing organs.

Why not?

-Armpit hair and hair generally aren't supposed to be cut, they have a natural function.

Oh sure, that's not natural.

All of the above "violate" the natural purpose of their existence.But we don't give a rat's ass.Why should we about homosexuality?

That is my point

Because being gay is natural. I can certainly see your point, we don't care about x,y and z being "unnatural", so why should we care if homosexuality is "unnatural"? Because it fucking well is natural! We don't want to give into the religious bullshit about it not being natural, because that gives them a lever with which to attack it.

[Le Libérer]

After Mother Teresa died, her confessor did an interview where he said at least 2 or 3 times a month, she would confess she didnt believe god existed. Theres nothing much the Church can argue with that seeing she is being considered for sainthood and has been beautified.

All other good ideas i would state have been suggested. The God Delusion was written with the concept of converting the faithful, so I also recomment reading it.

[Le Libérer]

Abortion: Ask them where abortion is actually forbidden in the bible (though Catholics don't only get there crap from that book, unlike others). Look up the life = breath thing that I remember reading about recently (can't remember where though).

Homosexuality: Ask them if they eat shell fish, god hates shell fish. http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/
Not to mention, Jesus came and didn't talk about gay sex at all, but he did say that many of the laws from the old testament are no longer relevant (otherwise, why would people work on a Sunday?).
Also see http://www.sexinchrist.com/threesome.html for a laugh (possibly serious, I am seriously unsure). Lesbianism is fine, not mentioned in the bible.

Capital Punishment: As said above, the Vatican opposes the death penalty in all cases. If they don't follow the Vatican in this case, ask them why they follow it in other cases.

Transgender: Where is this mentioned in the bible?

Artificial semination: Where is this mentioned in the bible?

While these are all really good questions, remember the Catholic Church didnt stop with what the Bible has to say about those things, but also has 2,000 years of canon law, that the Popes, who when they speak as Popes, are considered the infallable word of God.

[apathy maybe]

While these are all really good questions, remember the Catholic Church didnt stop with what the Bible has to say about those things, but also has 2,000 years of canon law, that the Popes, who when they speak as Popes, are considered the infallable word of God.

Replacing "there" with "their", you would have:

though Catholics don't only get their crap from that book, unlike others)

Where I acknowledged just that

(Oh and on the infallibility thing, Wikipedia

This doctrine was defined dogmatically in the First Vatican Council of 1870. According to Catholic theology, there are several concepts important to the understanding of infallible, divine revelation: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Magisterium. The infallible teachings of the pope are part of the Sacred Magisterium, which also consists of ecumenical councils and the "ordinary and universal magisterium". In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is one of the channels of the infallibility of the Church. The infallible teachings of the pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. Papal infallibility does not signify that the pope is impeccable, i.e., that he is specially exempt from liability to sin.

In practice, popes seldom use their power of infallibility, but rely on the notion that the Church allows the office of the pope to be the ruling agent in deciding what will be accepted as formal beliefs in the church."[2] Since the solemn declaration of Papal Infallibility by Vatican I on July 18, 1870, this power has been used only once ex cathedra: in 1950 when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary as being an article of faith for Roman Catholics. Thus, for example, the encyclical Humanae Vitae, issued in 1968 by Pope Paul VI is not considered to be infallible.

[Demogorgon]

that the Popes, who when they speak as Popes, are considered the infallable word of God.

That has only happened once though. To affirm the Divinity of Mary. I think it is best to clear up exactly where Catholic belief comes from. It comes from a whole set of sources. There is Catholic Tradition of course, the edicts of various councils, Canon Law, the work of Aquinas, aspects of Greek and Roman philosophy, Natural Law theory and so forth and that is before we even get to the Bible (which incidentally isn't taken literally by Catholics so quoting verse back and forth is pretty meaningless).

At Catholic School however the best way to argue is simply to outsmart the others. I went to Catholic School myself and the one think that will strike you more than anybody else is how little most people know about their religion. Most who believe in God will have a very naive and simplistic view of religion as Catholic Schools tend not to teach it very well, more focusing on aspects of building good character than theological study (which is fine incidentally, theology isn't exactly for everyone) and those who are just happy to float through their religious life simply considering themselves part of it but not taking much interest simply will not know anything about Catholic Doctrine. So when arguing with them, make sure you know as much about Catholicism as possible because I can guarantee that a large amount, perhaps even the majority, of what they say will directly contradict the official position of the Catholic Church. You can hammer that home time and time again.