Why is Che so popular?

[Anti communist]

I think there are 2 reasons why he is idolized so much even if people don't know who he is and what he stands for. 1st, that picture of him, which by the way I've heard is the most reproduced picture of all time, he looks like such a rebel in that picture. Damnit, I wish I could look that cool, no kiding!!!!!! And 2nd, the "mysterious" way he died.

I think there are people who rebel just for the sake of rebeling because they can. In the US they can rebel but not in communist dictatorships like Cuba. Wether it's the spiked hair while wearing a tuxedo, or hating captalists for the doom of the forests, the spotted owls, the whales, the greenhouse gases, etc, people in the US often rebel simply because they can and for no other reason. Imagine how lucky you are that the worst thing you have to worry about is the greenhouse effect. When in Cuba they don't give a damn about the greenhouse effect because they have real probs like no food, clothes, freedom of speech. Again, I lived it, so I know it.

[synthesis]

Well, for starters, you ought to click on that drag-down box at the bottom of the screen and read these articles:

What is it about Che?
Ernesto Che Guevara a pop-political myth
How and why the myth was born


Here's my take on why he's so popular.

1) He's damn sexy. Look at the guy, he sweats charisma.
2) He was a genuine rebel for socialism in a time when socialism was at its height in America; also, Che died young, which was a fascination of that era. Che got things done, and like Lenin and Mao, I disagree with a lot of what he said and some of his ideologies, but I admire him for what he actually did and accomplished.
3) This is the reason I admire him the most. He was a mythical 'poet-warrior', to use what I feel is the best term. Perhaps I can explain this better later, because my stomach is aching like hell right now. Basically, he was both a man of action and a man of theory, as opposed to simple men of action - the grunts - and the men of theory, the intellectuals, who write prolifically but never actually do anything themselves. Che is admired because he wrote brilliantly but wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty, so to speak. Does that make sense?

[Anti communist]

It makes perfect sense if you want to live in the misery he helped create in Cuba.

[Pete]

Che's death is not mysterious.

Here is where the info about it has been declassyfied.

[Umoja]

Mind you Cubans aren't very miserable. Except the ones that benefitted from living under Baptista.

[Anti communist]

Uh....NO Umoja. You mean:
Except the ones that benefitted from living under Batista and were dopey enough to stay when Castro took over. The rest of us are very happy in ****THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.....THE GOOD OLD US of A****

[Xvall]

Anti communist:

Tell me something. If the Cuban exiles love the United States so much; and hate socialism and Cuba. Why do they keep protesting against Fidel Castro? After all; according to people like you, socialism is doomed to failure; so with that logic, the Cuban government will simply collapse because it is doomed. Why then, would they bother protesting against him? Shouldn't they just wait for their government to collapse like you say it will?

I think there are people who rebel just for the sake of rebeling because they can. In the US they can rebel but not in communist dictatorships like Cuba.

I have heard of people who have dissented in Cuba. Unlike your insane image; they are not tortured and killed. If such was true, you would be dead right now. Not on this board to annoy the crap out of us.

Wether it's the spiked hair while wearing a tuxedo, or hating captalists for the doom of the forests, the spotted owls, the whales, the greenhouse gases, etc,

God forbid anyone oppose actions that could destroy the planet.

people in the US often rebel simply because they can and for no other reason.

That's silly. False. People in the United States have reason behind their dissent. I have never seen a protest in which the demonstrators had no reason for protesting. Have you ever gone up to a communist and asked them why they dislike the United States; did they just say 'because'?

Imagine how lucky you are that the worst thing you have to worry about is the greenhouse effect. When in Cuba they don't give a damn about the greenhouse effect because they have real probs like no food, clothes, freedom of speech.

The cubans have pleanty of food and clothing. I have never seen a picture of naked cuban children that have been subject to famine. Well, under the Batista regime, maybe. Freedom of speech? As I have stated before, I have never seen evidence that people who simply disagree with the Cuban Government are persecuted.

Again, I lived it, so I know it.

Oh, ok, I see. So if you have lived in a place, you must know everything about out; and anything you say it true, right? I live in the United States. So if I say that the United States is a brutal, money-driven, imperialistic regime you're just going to accept that, right? After all, I live here; so my opinion reflects the whole of the entire United States population.

[Anti communist]

Drake, your ignorance is unparalled, except maybe by thursday night who is silly enough to make this claim:

I've had it beyond my tolerance level with you filthy Cuban exiles. Socialism in Cuba is brilliant and nearly flawless, but you whiny upper-class malcontents spread these lies that have no bearing on truth. I have posted pages and pages of facts and comparisons of Cuba and neighbouring countries, not to mention my own experiences in that free island, but I am talking to a wall when I talk to an exile, which I assume you are.

That is so far from the truth. You want your proof of torture? Ok, here is the story of just one of many thousands that were killed or tortured by Castro. He was lucky to live through 22 yrs of torture. Most don't get to live.:

Armando Valladares
http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=625

http://www.blackstoneaudio.com/audiobook.cfm?ID=1069

http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/aghop/aghop.html

And that is one of the main reasons we protest him, along with the 44 yrs of misery he's put the people through.

You said: I have heard of people who have dissented in Cuba. Unlike your insane image; they are not tortured and killed. If such was true, you would be dead right now. Not on this board to annoy the crap out of us.

Not true, they all die or get tortured or at a minimum get jailed. Just ask Armando Valladares (links above). He was arrested at about age 20 or 22 and was tortured for 22 yrs. The reason I'm alive is because I left when I was 7 yrs old.

You said: The cubans have plenty of food and clothing. I have never seen a picture of naked cuban children that have been subject to famine. Well, under the Batista regime, maybe. Freedom of speech? As I have stated before, I have never seen evidence that people who simply disagree with the Cuban Government are persecuted.

Yeah they have clothes, 3 t shirts, 1 pair of shoes, 2 pairs of pants. The women in my neighborhood used to have to make skirts from potato sacks when they couldn't get anything new (I kid you not). I know that was the worst case but it happened. And we lived in a suburb of Havana not in the country away from stores. Also, everyone makes about $100 a month. You can't live on that. Also, everyone has to have a quota book when they go to a store so you can't try to buy more than your quota (if you had the money that is). Want to know what the quota was like? Take a gander: 'You get 1 oz of coffee a month, 1 egg a day, 1 piece of bread a day, 1 pair of shoes a yr, kids get 1 toy a yr around Christmas time. While it's not a famine (like in N. Korea), that is what is called the absolute bare essentials to live. Nothing more. I remmber I used to love black beans with rice. My mom once in a while would trade something for some black beans for me. She would trade almost anything she had like an electric fan for a few lbs of beans, etc. I remember her doing this a few times.

Does this answer your questions?

(Edited by Anti communist at 2:25 am on April 1, 2003)


(Edited by Anti communist at 2:27 am on April 1, 2003)


(Edited by Anti communist at 2:28 am on April 1, 2003)


(Edited by Anti communist at 2:29 am on April 1, 2003)

[Xvall]

Not true, they all die or get tortured or at a minimum get jailed. Just ask Armando Valladares (links above). He was arrested at about age 20 or 22 and was tortured for 22 yrs. The reason I'm alive is because I left when I was 7 yrs old.

This is just your claim and personal experience. I know offhand a few people who have openly talked about how the did not like the government; nothing happened to them. Show me an article in the Cuban Constitution that claims that people can not express their opinion against the state. You have yet to provide anyone with evidence. Your claims are about as accurate as me saying that the CIA tortures tons of people. Be it true or not; no one would take it seriously. Why should I take yours? And please point me to somethign unbiased; crapitalismagazine.com means as much to me as vivacastro.com does to you.

Yeah they have clothes, 3 t shirts, 1 pair of shoes, 2 pairs of pants. The women in my neighborhood used to have to make skirts from potato sacks when they couldn't get anything new (I kid you not).

There are some people in the United States that live like that as well. What is your point?

I know that was the worst case but it happened. And we lived in a suburb of Havana not in the country away from stores. Also, everyone makes about $100 a month. You can't live on that.

Apparently you can, because last time I checked; 100% of the current Cuban population was still alive.

Also, everyone has to have a quota book when they go to a store so you can't try to buy more than your quota (if you had the money that is). Want to know what the quota was like? Take a gander: 'You get 1 oz of coffee a month, 1 egg a day, 1 piece of bread a day, 1 pair of shoes a yr, kids get 1 toy a yr around Christmas time. While it's not a famine (like in N. Korea), that is what is called the absolute bare essentials to live. Nothing more. I remmber I used to love black beans with rice. My mom once in a while would trade something for some black beans for me. She would trade almost anything she had like an electric fan for a few lbs of beans, etc. I remember her doing this a few times.

Maybe if there wasn't an embargo opressing your long lost cousins; this would not be happening. I know I am not presenting a very detailed argument; but you are relating your personal experiences to the whole of the population. I doubt that the entire Cuban population agrees with you, and I don't see how Batista was any better.

[Pete]

Also, everyone makes about $100 a month. You can't live on that.

In America you cannot live on that. Cuba is a different nation, with a different cost of living. It is cheaper to live in Cuba than America because there government has programs that take care of those who cannot do so themselves.

Your experiences are all sad, but they mean shit. Should all people who loose that amount on the stock market flee to Cuba and complain that America has treated them bad? Having the amount of wealth you state you did I can't understand why being brought down to the level of an average citizen hurts. You go from pampered to having to work. I just don't understand. Explain it to me.

[Anti communist]

Drake, I've shot huge holes through your claims and you haven't been able to touch any of mine. But since you like being embarassed, here I go again.

You said: This is just your claim and personal experience. I know offhand a few people who have openly talked about how the did not like the government; nothing happened to them. Show me an article in the Cuban Constitution that claims that people can not express their opinion against the state. You have yet to provide anyone with evidence. Your claims are about as accurate as me saying that the CIA tortures tons of people. Be it true or not; no one would take it seriously. Why should I take yours? And please point me to somethign unbiased; crapitalismagazine.com means as much to me as vivacastro.com does to you.

You don't know anyone who spoke against the gov't and is out of jail. YOU prove your claim. Show ME your proof.

As far as the Cuban cnstitution......I can't believe you are so NAIVE. Do you think that in a communist dictatorship, wether Cuba, China, or N Korea, the constitution is worth the paper it's written on? It's written just for propaganda. They control you with fear. Because of this fear you fall in line with the rest of the sheep or you die. In the public eye, it's all smiles and hugs, when the cameras disapear it's fear and torture. There is a snitch on every block in Cuba who's job it is to report anyone who speaks against the gov't. Did you know this? People live in fear.

As far as proof of Armando Vlladares being tortutred, look at the third link in my group of 3 where it says that the French president Francois Mitterand got nvolved, and look at the link below which looks almost identical to the 3rd one in my other post but it has more detail and it says: Unbelievably, while many non-governmental organizations like Amnesty International and America's Watch have denounced the human rights situation in Cuba, there has been a continuing love affair on the part of the media and many intellectuals with Fidel Castro.

http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/aghop/...p_prologue.html

You said: There are some people in the United States that live like that as well. What is your point?

My point is that while there are a some people in the US who live like this, in Cuba ***EVERYONE LIVES LIKE THIS.***

You said: Apparently you can [live on that little food], because last time I checked; 100% of the current Cuban population was still alive.

But that is the bare minimum to keep you alive. What if you feel like a piece of cheesecake? You can't get it!! Do I have to spell it out word by word?

You said: Maybe if there wasn't an embargo opressing your long lost cousins; this would not be happening. I know I am not presenting a very detailed argument; but you are relating your personal experiences to the whole of the population. I doubt that the entire Cuban population agrees with you, and I don't see how Batista was any better.

That is so ignorant. Cuba has many natural resources which can be used to feed the people but Castro chooses not to do that.

As far as life under Batista, did you not read the part where I said in my original email that durng Batista there were pooer, middle, and rich classes, but now during Castro, there are only the poor?

Dude, give it up. Communism in Cuba doesn't work and you aren't getting the full story on this website. Do you concede now?

[synthesis]

GALLUP POLL: Cubans Support the Revolution

By Luis Martin

Nov. 6, 1999

An independent, scientific survey conducted in Cuba in 1994 revealed that a significant majority there believes the Revolution has yielded more successes than failures. The great majority of Cubans also blamed the U.S. economic sanctions -rather than the political system- for economic difficulties.

The interviews, conducted by Central American pollsters, canvassed 1,002 Cubans over 75% of the national territory to represent over 70% of the islands population. The poll was designed by the Miami Herald and CID/Gallup, the Costa Rican affiliate of Gallup in Princeton, N.J. Needless to say, the Miami Herald and Cuban exiles did not like the results and no other poll of this kind has been conducted since.

Asked what problems have been caused in Cuba by U.S. economic sanctions, 62% of those familiar with that law said it has created major problems for Cuba, 24% said the usual problems and the remainder gave no response. Followed responses also cited the U.S. blockade as the principal cause of the island's economic problems.

Although the second largest majority chose food shortages to be Cuba's most serious problem, most said to be either completely or partly satisfied with their present consumption. An overwhelming number of respondents also indicated that they believe conditions will improve as a result of government reforms.

The pollsters also concluded from their findings that Cubans are in the main are still willing to support their revolution. Fifty-eight percent said they believe that the achievements of the Revolution -mainly education and health care- far outweighed its failures.

Responding to the question: "who would aid anyone who disagrees with the government", the great majority said "nobody" and the smallest minority chose "political dissidents".

Among other significant findings:

--A majority preferred economic and social equality over individual freedom and an equal number chose government management of agriculture and industry over private ownership.

--The vast majority stated that racial discrimination is virtually non-existent in Cuba.

--Eighty percent were found to disagree with President Clinton's termination of remittances from relatives in the U.S. and trips between the two countries.

--A large majority chose Cuban television and radio as providing the most accurate news about Cuba and the world, over all foreign means of communication including friends and family.

--Ninety-one percent were found to be home owners and 86% of them had fully paid their homes.

--The overwhelming majority of Cubans considered Mexico as their best friend and the U.S. as their worst.

Responding to criticism from likely sources in Miami, Carlos Denton, Director of CID/Gallup in Costa Rica, said in his analysis of the survey: "We conducted the poll to our entire professional satisfaction. We were able to do it because the people could care less whether we were authorized or not, or what we asked." Denton added: "they were not afraid".



___________

Dom's note: Gallup is probably the most reliable and certainly one of the most widely used poll services. Claims of 'unreliable sources' will be laughed at.

[Anti communist]

Hey DyerMaker, why don't you provide a link to this poll instead of just pasting it here. Watch how I shoot holes through this pole.


What they failed to say is that most of those poled knew that someone from the gov't was looking over their shoulders to see if they fell in line. And I'll bet the polsters didn't have the freedom to choose whoever they wanted off the streets to pole. They were led by gov't officials to 1002 people who they knew would answer favorably probably because they were thrown a bone or work for the govt. Do you think that the foreign media, which is not controlled by the gov't has the freedom to go throughout the country and just poll people at random without the gov't propaganda minister standing near by? You are definitely naive. And it also doesn't take into account that the vast majority of the polulation has never lived under freedom (because Castro took over 44 yrs ago) and they've never tasted the fruits it offers and therefore don't know any better. All they know is that the state run propaganda tells them they are better off then before Castro.

Here's another hole: Asked what problems have been caused in Cuba by U.S. economic sanctions, 62% of those familiar with that law said it has created major problems for Cuba.

It says 62% of those who know about the law agree that it has impact. It doesn't say that 62% of those poled. So I want to know what percent of the 1002 knew of the law (was it 10%, 50%), then we can take 62% of those as saying it had an impact. Is this so hard to pick out. Why am I the only one who notices this? Even it's 50% knew about the law, only 62% of those agreed it caused them problems. That would equal 31%, not even 1/3.

There are food shortages as I claimed: Although the second largest majority chose food shortages to be Cuba's most serious problem, most said to be either completely or partly satisfied with their present consumption. An overwhelming number of respondents also indicated that they believe conditions will improve as a result of government reforms.

Another hole: The pollsters also concluded from their findings that Cubans are in the main are still willing to support their revolution. Fifty-eight percent said they believe that the achievements of the Revolution -mainly education and health care- far outweighed its failures.

That's all they can claim, healthcare and education. Everything else is shit (lack of food, freedom, living in fear). How about some freedom to use that education as you see fit, not the gov't. Also, what is that about Cubans in the main? Is that gov't workers who have it a little better? And why is there a word missing between the words CUBANS and ARE? There should be either a THAT or WHO there. ****Did you alter this article?****

Another hole: Responding to the question: "who would aid anyone who disagrees with the government", the great majority said "nobody" and the smallest minority chose "political dissidents".

That means that they are scared to speak out. Am I the only one who sees this? Look at the question abd answer.

Another hole: --A majority preferred economic and social equality over individual freedom and an equal number chose government management of agriculture and industry over private ownership.

That proves (because the polster asked the question)that they don't have individual freedom, only economic (misery) and social equality, and it says that after 44 yrs, they want the gov't to do everything for them. I think they would hardly know what to do with their freedom at this point if they had any.

I agree with this and it's a good thing: --The vast majority stated that racial discrimination is virtually non-existent in Cuba.

Don't try to to say that how can I agree with parts of the poll and not other parts. I lived there so I know this part is true. Don't worry, if this wasn't true, they would still claim it is cause of the propaganda guy standing near by.

I can explain this: --Eighty percent were found to disagree with President Clinton's termination of remittances from relatives in the U.S. and trips between the two countries.

Ths is about us sending money to them. When we were able to send them money, they would get up to a 20 to 1 peso for dollar exchange at one point. So if you send them $100, they can live on that for 1/2 yr. That's why 80 % miss that. Am I the only one who notices these things?

For them to make this claim, I know the propaganda minister has to be standing by with his henchmen: --A large majority chose Cuban television and radio as providing the most accurate news about Cuba and the world, over all foreign means of communication including friends and family.

I'm not surprised by this:--The overwhelming majority of Cubans considered Mexico as their best friend and the U.S. as their worst.


GALLUP POLL: Cubans Support the Revolution

By Luis Martin

Nov. 6, 1999

An independent, scientific survey conducted in Cuba in 1994 revealed that a significant majority there believes the Revolution has yielded more successes than failures. The great majority of Cubans also blamed the U.S. economic sanctions -rather than the political system- for economic difficulties.

The interviews, conducted by Central American pollsters, canvassed 1,002 Cubans over 75% of the national territory to represent over 70% of the islands population. The poll was designed by the Miami Herald and CID/Gallup, the Costa Rican affiliate of Gallup in Princeton, N.J. Needless to say, the Miami Herald and Cuban exiles did not like the results and no other poll of this kind has been conducted since.

Asked what problems have been caused in Cuba by U.S. economic sanctions, 62% of those familiar with that law said it has created major problems for Cuba, 24% said the usual problems and the remainder gave no response. Followed responses also cited the U.S. blockade as the principal cause of the island's economic problems.

Although the second largest majority chose food shortages to be Cuba's most serious problem, most said to be either completely or partly satisfied with their present consumption. An overwhelming number of respondents also indicated that they believe conditions will improve as a result of government reforms.

The pollsters also concluded from their findings that Cubans are in the main are still willing to support their revolution. Fifty-eight percent said they believe that the achievements of the Revolution -mainly education and health care- far outweighed its failures.

Responding to the question: "who would aid anyone who disagrees with the government", the great majority said "nobody" and the smallest minority chose "political dissidents".

Among other significant findings:

--A majority preferred economic and social equality over individual freedom and an equal number chose government management of agriculture and industry over private ownership.

--The vast majority stated that racial discrimination is virtually non-existent in Cuba.

--Eighty percent were found to disagree with President Clinton's termination of remittances from relatives in the U.S. and trips between the two countries.

--A large majority chose Cuban television and radio as providing the most accurate news about Cuba and the world, over all foreign means of communication including friends and family.

--Ninety-one percent were found to be home owners and 86% of them had fully paid their homes.

--The overwhelming majority of Cubans considered Mexico as their best friend and the U.S. as their worst.

Responding to criticism from likely sources in Miami, Carlos Denton, Director of CID/Gallup in Costa Rica, said in his analysis of the survey: "We conducted the poll to our entire professional satisfaction. We were able to do it because the people could care less whether we were authorized or not, or what we asked." Denton added: "they were not afraid".
___________

Dom's note: Gallup is probably the most reliable and certainly one of the most widely used poll services. Claims of 'unreliable sources' will be laughed at.



(Edited by Anti communist at 5:23 am on April 1, 2003)

[synthesis]

You have some vaguely interesting theories, but you have failed to prove any of them. You have merely asserted them without any back-up whatsoever. Your upper-class bourgeois background in Cuba (lasting only the first few years of your life, might I add) means nothing here.

What they failed to say is that most of those poled knew that blah blah blah

Bullshit, I say, and bullshit it will remain until you can back yourself up with facts that pertain to this poll.

It says 62% of those who know about the law agree that it has impact. It doesn't say that 62% of those poled.

Um, all this means is that the people who didn't answer this question didn't know anything about it and therefore it would be impossible for them to have an opinion on it.

Why am I the only one who notices this?

Because you choose to misinterpret the statistics to represent your own flawed hypotheses.

There are food shortages as I claimed:

Yet, most people said that they were happy with the amount of food that they had. Explain this, please.

That's all they can claim, healthcare and education. Everything else is...blah, blah, blah

Blah, blah, blah. Holes my eye, you're just spouting off more ridiculous rhetoric that you refuse to back up with anything of merit.

That means that they are scared to speak out.

Not until you prove it. Until you do so, it means simply that they're happy enough with Castro that they would not aid a counter-revolutionary effort.

That proves (because the polster asked the question)that they don't have individual freedom

Maybe so, but in case you didn't notice, the majority likes it that way.

and it says that after 44 yrs, they want the gov't to do everything for them

What? They said that they preferred government control of the means of production over private control. This merely says that they prefer socialism over capitalism - nothing more.

Ths is about us sending money to them. When we were able to send them money, they would get up to a 20 to 1 peso for dollar exchange at one point. So if you send them $100, they can live on that for 1/2 yr. That's why 80 % miss that. Am I the only one who notices these things?

Yeah, so what's so bad about that?

For them to make this claim, I know the propaganda minister has to be standing by with his henchmen

No. You "know" that a large majority prefers Cuban newspapers and television over all other sources of news. They feel that it is the most accurate. You are claiming that this means that the propaganda minister is working overtime. And what must always come with claims? Evidence.

Until you learn this crucial point, don't bother coming here, kid. You ain't shit.

[Anti communist]

I've already debunked your theories, claims, and polls. I'm not gonna read through this whole post again.

But why don't you show us the link to your poll? Are you scared because you might have doctored it after you pasted it into your post? Even if you didn't I shot holes through it. I have to go answer another post from yesterday which I never replied to and that's gonna take a while so I'll catch you later.

[peaccenicked]

Che is more than a founder of the modern Cuban nation
http://www.arabia.com/news/article/english...7,52221,00.html

And from a grudging journalist at the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2356903.stm

[redstar2000]

Ok, worm, you have two threads on "cuba the communist hell-hole" on this board.

What do you base this on? You've told us you came to the United States at the age of 7 back in 1971. You speak as one who has learned about the "horrors of communism" from your middle-class parents. Your first-hand knowledge of Cuban conditions is 30 years old.

The "worm links" are obviously not worth taking seriously. So what do you really have to offer?

Do you expect us to take seriously such assertions that "Fidel has billions of dollars" or that Fidel "deliberately refuses to feed people" or that...well, fuck it.

Listen up, worm, your capitalist vision of "freedom"--the freedom to get rich and make other people work for you--is, on this board, regarded as plain and simple crap!

You wannabe a superstitious neo-conservative proto-fascist "good American"...that's your call. Maybe you can run for mayor of Miami.

But your message here is just noise, obnoxious noise at that. Go find the web site for Venezuelan exiles and whine to them...they'll be a lot more sympathetic than we will.

[synthesis]

It's right here, kid.

I've already debunked your theories, claims, and polls.

You debunked nothing. You spouted off numerous conjectures, mouthed off a bunch of raving rhetoric, and provided absolutely no evidence to support any of it. Again - you punctured nothing.

I replied to all of your contrived bullshit. I'm waiting for you to address it.

[Anti communist]

Redstar, seems like you can't offer a good, intelligent counter argument so you just start name calling. By the way, that word...worm, that's what the communists used to call use "exiles" before we left. Hm....interesting. But seriously, it's annoying as hell so please stop it and keep it civil.

Yeah, I knew it 30 yrs ago. But my mother knew it way before and way after Castro. If you want to ignore a legitimate claim/link like the following, then you are truly ignorant. Again, chk this out again:

As far as proof of Armando Vlladares being tortutred, look at the third link in my group of 3 where it says that the French president Francois Mitterand got nvolved, and look at the link below which looks almost identical to the 3rd one in my other post but it has more detail and it says: Unbelievably, while many non-governmental organizations like Amnesty International and America's Watch have denounced the human rights situation in Cuba, there has been a continuing love affair on the part of the media and many intellectuals with Fidel Castro.

http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/aghop/...p_prologue.html

Your hostility and dismisal of my evidence can only mean that you know I'm right and you just can't admit it. Oh, and by the way, may I ask what your experience with the human rights issues in Cuba is (other than the leftist propaganda you get here)? I've been there and done that and I chose the US system of gov't.

Oh, and have a good evening.

[Charred Phoenix]

"Drake, I've shot huge holes through your claims and you haven't been able to touch any of mine."

To extend your metaphor, and pathetic attempt to create an illusion of literacy, all I can see left of your argument is a pile of shattered fragments; every time you post, a host of people rebut your points and you come up with an array of equally false ones, it reminds me of a child trying to hold sand in a sift.

"Hm....interesting. But seriously, it's annoying as hell so please stop it and keep it civil. "

How about the fact that we find lines like this: "****THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.....THE GOOD OLD US of A****", to use your own words, "annoying as hell", such things provide no argument, they only show just how perochial you are.

"My point is that while there are a some people in the US who live like this, in Cuba ***EVERYONE LIVES LIKE THIS.*** "

This almost drove me into a rage, WAKE UP TO YOURSELF, THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF COMMUNISM, TO DESTROY THE CLASSES, WHY SHOULD THE LUCKY PEOPLE LIVE HAPPILY WHILE OTHERS SUFFER TO KEEP THEM RICH?

redstar:

"What do you base this on? You've told us you came to the United States at the age of 7 back in 1971. You speak as one who has learned about the "horrors of communism" from your middle-class parents. Your first-hand knowledge of Cuban conditions is 30 years old. "

Not to mention that this all comes from a 7 year olds perspective, and it is generally excepted that the average human being has no memories before they are 5, so even when your credibility is maxmized YOU HAVE TWO YEARS OF EXPERIENCE 30 YEARS AGO!!!!