Let's just forget the USSR

[NerdVincent]

Why do I see all those soviet flag in member's avatar?
I'm communist. I loath USSR. Why to bother with USSR when it was a state-capitalist totalitarian state? What kind of enemy done the most harm to us new communists, if it isn't Soviet Russia, Maoist China or Korth Korea? Those states are the reason why nowaday when people hear "communism", they think "goulag", "dictatorship" and "famine".
I even think about putting a new name to the communist ideology, just so people won't make the link.

[BobKKKindle$]

I'm communist. I loath USSR.

Although terrible crimes were committed in the former "socialist" bloc there were also many positive achievements which should be recognized and celebrated - for example, the universal provision of health care, the elimination of illiteracy, and full employment. In addition, the mistakes which were made need to be analyzed and discussed carefully, as they pose valuable lessons which can be used in future attempts to develop socialism.

[RedAnarchist]

I even think about putting a new name to the communist ideology, just so people won't make the link.

We've had numerous discussions on this issue, but if you ask me, I think that changing the name will be pointless. We shouldn't change our image to suit the bourgoisie, we should change our image as it is seen in the eyes of the working class.

[revolution inaction]

Why do I see all those soviet flag in member's avatar?

There are quite a few Leninists (Stalinist, Trotskyists and Maoists) on these boards, there are not our allies so long as there remain Leninist. Not all red flags represent the USSR though, and not every one with one in there profile will be a Leninist, it is the most well know communist symbol so I doubt everyone using it supports the USSR

I'm communist. I loath USSR. Why to bother with USSR when it was a state-capitalist totalitarian state? What kind of enemy done the most harm to us new communists, if it isn't Soviet Russia, Maoist China or Korth Korea? Those states are the reason why nowaday when people hear "communism", they think "goulag", "dictatorship" and "famine".

Me to I think it is important to be absolutely clear that we consider the ussr capitalist not communist.

I even think about putting a new name to the communist ideology, just so people won't make the link.

This wont work when I describe my ideas to people they often recognise it as communisum (when they don't say "but that would be anarchy!!" : ) the key is to point out that we don't think the ussr was communist, and why not.

Although terrible crimes were committed in the former "socialist" bloc there were also many positive achievements which should be recognized and celebrated - for example, the universal provision of health care, the elimination of illiteracy, and full employment. In addition, the mistakes which were made need to be analyzed and discussed carefully, as they pose valuable lessons which can be used in future attempts to develop socialism.

Many of those things happened in western countries to, the best thing we can learn from the ussr is what not to do.

[Led Zeppelin]

This belongs in History, so Moved.

[trivas7]

Why do I see all those soviet flag in member's avatar?
I'm communist. I loath USSR. Why to bother with USSR when it was a state-capitalist totalitarian state? What kind of enemy done the most harm to us new communists, if it isn't Soviet Russia, Maoist China or Korth Korea? Those states are the reason why nowaday when people hear "communism", they think "goulag", "dictatorship" and "famine".
I even think about putting a new name to the communist ideology, just so people won't make the link.

This just dates you.

[Tower of Bebel]

I think we should leave the USSR behind for another reason:

The old contradictions are worth getting rid of not because they are ‘outdated’ at all. The far older division into reformists and revolutionaries, and according to the Russian tradition – into Bolsheviks and Mensheviks, is not out of date. Just the conditions in which the left movement exists in the late 1980s – early 90s have radically changed. With the collapse of the socialist camp, the restoration of capitalism in the USSR, Eastern Europe and in a somewhat different form in China it was the end of the whole epoch of the development of both capitalism and the world revolution, which started with the victory of the socialism in Russia and with its defeat in Germany. Ground Zero of the world history came, partly even the ‘old’ imperialism returned. The polarization of the poverty and wealth, which was smoothed away in the 20th century in the leading capitalist countries for fear of ‘the repetition of the USSR’, has reached again the level of 1914.

History came full circle and came back to the same point again but at a new level of development. The national monopolies gave place to the transnational ones, liberalism to neoliberalism, colonialism – to neocolonialism; the advanced productive forces are not already an internal-combustion engine and electrical generator, but telecommunications industry and genetic engineering and so on. Accordingly the revolutionary theory must draw a kind of circle along the spiral of its own development and, getting rid of the contradictions of the other phase of the turn, come to the crotch of neobolshevism and neomenshevism.

The masses understand it better than the revolutionaries; they are hardly interested in the fact who was right - Stalin, Trotsky or Mao. They are interested in technologies of resisting to corporations, in defense of labor and social rights, one can get them interested in the idea of radical breaking of social relations, relations of property and authority, in the idea of revolution.

Many of those things happened in western countries to, the best thing we can learn from the ussr is what not to do.

Not true. Capitalism never achieved anything truely socialist in any country (I don't think the Soviet Union was socialist). The Soviet Union had positive aspects. It was not "evil" or "hell" or something.

[godfailed]

Personally I think it's more of a symbol than actually loving the USSR. I love the hammer and sickle. I will cut my crops peacefully but if you take that right from me i will bash you over the head with my hammer.

But yeah, USSR aren't exactly the poster boys for communism. Cuba have been far more successful imo. Free University education ftw.

[Dros]

I'm communist.

No you're not. You are a left wing liberal with a bourgeois understanding of history.

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

No you're not. You are a left wing liberal with a bourgeois understanding of history.

I guess all anarchists and ussr haters are liberals then?

[Led Zeppelin]

The masses understand it better than the revolutionaries; they are hardly interested in the fact who was right - Stalin, Trotsky or Mao. They are interested in technologies of resisting to corporations, in defense of labor and social rights, one can get them interested in the idea of radical breaking of social relations, relations of property and authority, in the idea of revolution.

Sorry but this is simply not true.

Any person who's even remotely interested in politics will bring up the Soviet Union/Stalin/Mao when you tell them you're a Marxist/communist/revolutionary socialist.

You should be able to defend your views when they do.

[Hit The North]

Not true. Capitalism never achieved anything truely socialist in any country

For the majority of the cold war, Western European countries were run by political elites who were committed to full employment, universal state benefits and health care, expansion of mass education, etc. - the whole Keynesian thing. Of course, none of those things are intrinsically socialist whether in a mixed economy or bureaucratically planned economy context. But there was an amazing correspondence in the thinking of both sides.

[Trystan]

Although terrible crimes were committed in the former "socialist" bloc there were also many positive achievements which should be recognized and celebrated - for example, the universal provision of health care, the elimination of illiteracy, and full employment.

Don't take this the wrong way, but there were many positive achievements in the Third Reich, too. Unemployment was reduced, for example. Should these be "celebrated", too? I think not.

the mistakes which were made need to be analyzed and discussed carefully

What "mistakes"? The Soviet ruling class only served their own interests, and by shitting on their people they kept themselves in power.

as they pose valuable lessons which can be used in future attempts to develop socialism

True. But the crimes committed certainly was a high price to pay.

The USSR was a grotesque caricature of socialism and we should have no qualms in saying so.

I don't see any problem with the Hammer and Sickle, though. I don't think that a new euphamism is necessary either. Christianity has a fucked up history, but upon hearing the word most people don't think "Spanish Inquisition" or "anti-Semitism". Propaganda/education IS necessary.

[revolution inaction]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobkindles
Although terrible crimes were committed in the former "socialist" bloc there were also many positive achievements which should be recognized and celebrated - for example, the universal provision of health care, the elimination of illiteracy, and full employment. In addition, the mistakes which were made need to be analyzed and discussed carefully, as they pose valuable lessons which can be used in future attempts to develop socialism.
Many of those things happened in western countries to, the best thing we can learn from the ussr is what not to do.

Not true. Capitalism never achieved anything truely socialist in any country (I don't think the Soviet Union was socialist). The Soviet Union had positive aspects. It was not "evil" or "hell" or something.

Ok many was an exaggeration but in the uk there is free health care and illiteracy is quite low, and as I know this is also the situation in other west european countries. I agree that no capitalist county has achieved any thing truly socialist, but I deliberately didn't use the word capitalist because the "communist/socialist" countries where capitalist too, just a different kind.
I know the soviet union was not as bad as many people believe but it was probably the worst thing that has ever happened to socialism.

No you're not. You are a left wing liberal with a bourgeois understanding of history.

aren't you a Stalinist or a Maoist? you don't know fuck all about communism.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Why do I see all those soviet flag in member's avatar?

Because those members, and others, recognize the great achievements made by the Soviet Union before traitors dragged it through Capitalist reform.
They've been listed by other members above, I believe.

I'm communist. I loath USSR. Why to bother with USSR when it was a state-capitalist totalitarian state?

Put down the bourgeois story/"history" books.

What kind of enemy done the most harm to us new communists, if it isn't Soviet Russia, Maoist China or North Korea? Those states are the reason why nowaday when people hear "communism", they think "gulag", "dictatorship" and "famine".

Yes because bourgeois propaganda conveniently omits that:
-the gulags were not death camps, nor was everyone in them innocent.
-bourgeois democracies aren't democratic, and you use that like it's a bad word. heard of the "dictatorship of the proletariat"?
-the famine was caused by kulaks resisting collectivization and in fact raising food prices.

As for Maoist China and North Korea:
There's a sinister misinformation campaign directed at Mao which I would get into details of right now.
North Korea is more like a monarchy, and the "Juche" philosophy is hardly Marxist. However, the intent of the revolution there was certainly noble.
Comrades may tell you that they would like to replace Kim Jong Il with an actual Communist. Bourgeois will tell you that they want to replace Kim Jong Il as well--but with a Capitalist leader.

I even think about putting a new name to the communist ideology, just so people won't make the link.

I think that's the dumbest idea I've heard in a while.

[Luís Henrique]

I don't use a red flag with a hammer-and-sickle as an avatar, but...

The hammer-and-sickle is not a symbol of the Soviet Union.

It is the symbol of worker-peasant alliance.

Luís Henrique

[Harrycombs]

There are quite a few Leninists (Stalinist, Trotskyists and Maoists) on these boards, there are not our allies so long as there remain Leninist.

So I guess you don't like me?

[The Intransigent Faction]

Ok many was an exaggeration but in the uk there is free health care and illiteracy is quite low, and as I know this is also the situation in other west european countries. I agree that no capitalist county has achieved any thing truly socialist, but I deliberately didn't use the word capitalist because the "communist/socialist" countries where capitalist too, just a different kind.

Yes there are hard-fought-four reforms that weren't just given on impulse by bourgeois leaders. They had to be fought for and in fact face threats of dismantlement far too frequently. Capitalism did not give us these reforms. The struggle against it has, at least for a while.
Ah yes the "state capitalism" card. Would you prefer to see free-market competition against state monopolies?
Public health care, public schooling, public housing..yeah, those really sound like Capitalist ideas.

I know the soviet union was not as bad as many people believe but it was probably the worst thing that has ever happened to socialism.

No, bourgeois variants of "Socialism" designed merely to appease the workers and keep the current system essentially in place are the worst thing to happen to Socialism. Well, there might be worse..like Feudal Socialism which I know a bit less about.

aren't you a Stalinist or a Maoist? you don't know fuck all about communism.

*SIGH* oh the sectarianism!
I really don't know how to respond to this, or even if I should, but:
Being anti-revisionist actually requires a significant knowledge regarding historical applications of Socialism and it's struggle against Capitalism.
Idealistic notions of an anarchistic society show that regardless of your knowledge or lack of knowledge of Socialism, you fail to grasp something more important: how it is to be implemented.
A Socialist Workers' State is an important step in the direction of Communism, whereas anarchy leaves a power gap which may be seized by bourgeois opportunists in counter-revolution.

[ckaihatsu]

I even think about putting a new name to the communist ideology, just so people won't make the link.

We've had numerous discussions on this issue, but if you ask me, I think that changing the name will be pointless. We shouldn't change our image to suit the bourgoisie, we should change our image as it is seen in the eyes of the working class.

Personally I think it's more of a symbol than actually loving the USSR. I love the hammer and sickle.

I don't see any problem with the Hammer and Sickle, though. I don't think that a new euphamism is necessary either. Christianity has a fucked up history, but upon hearing the word most people don't think "Spanish Inquisition" or "anti-Semitism". Propaganda/education IS necessary.

I've always found the hammer-and-sickle symbol to be misleading. I thought the point of communism is for the workers to collectively control the means of *industrial* production -- the hammer evokes individual, *manual* labor, and the sickle evokes individual, *agricultural* labor. Where's the collectivism? Where's the industrialism? The symbol should be more like a meeting hall, or a factory or tractor or something...!

On the issue of marketing I think symbols do have significance, and can't easily be dismissed. Perhaps people do associate backwards *agricultural production* with communism *because* of the hammer-and-sickle symbol, among historical reasons as well.


---

I know the soviet union was not as bad as many people believe but it was probably the worst thing that has ever happened to socialism.

The USSR was a grotesque caricature of socialism and we should have no qualms in saying so.

[T]hose members, and others, recognize the great achievements made by the Soviet Union before traitors dragged it through Capitalist reform.

The Soviet ruling class only served their own interests, and by shitting on their people they kept themselves in power.

Although terrible crimes were committed in the former "socialist" bloc there were also many positive achievements which should be recognized and celebrated - for example, the universal provision of health care, the elimination of illiteracy, and full employment. In addition, the mistakes which were made need to be analyzed and discussed carefully, as they pose valuable lessons which can be used in future attempts to develop socialism.

I guess all anarchists and ussr haters are liberals then?

[I]n the uk there is free health care and illiteracy is quite low, and as I know this is also the situation in other west european countries. I agree that no capitalist county has achieved any thing truly socialist, but I deliberately didn't use the word capitalist because the "communist/socialist" countries where capitalist too, just a different kind.

I think we have to look at the *whole world* in that period, where World War II was just a continuation of World War I, with the major imperialist powers vying against each other in their bids to carve up the world's colonies for their own benefit, to the detriment of the other empires.

It really was just the same as what the petty dictators did to Yugoslavia in the late '90s after its economic collapse -- the same dynamic was at work in World War II, but at a global scale -- it's called 'balkanization', where the only way for empire to (re-)establish its own order is through ethnic cleansing. In World War II, and then in the Cold War, this was done by the Allied and Axis powers alike, by FDR as much as by Stalin, Churchill, or Hitler.

Comrades may tell you that they would like to replace Kim Jong Il with an actual Communist. Bourgeois will tell you that they want to replace Kim Jong Il as well--but with a Capitalist leader.

Comrades would tell you that they would like to reunify Korea. (!)


Chris




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[Random Precision]

We cannot just "forget" the whole Soviet experience. Whatever leftist tendency one is from, all of us are bound to see the Russian Revolution as the major historical achievement of the workers movement. In fact, I believe it is the single most important event in history. All of us are bound to take lessons from the Russian experience, whether we believe it took the wrong track in 1918, 1927, 1956, or 1982.