What makes a socialist? - To all the cappies out there

[Sirion]

After readng a few topics here, I was starting to wonder what the cappies here think is required for a person to be considered socialist. So, sum it up, and post it here.

And, keep away things similiar to Stormin's sig. Posting those things will only make fools of ye...

[Stormin Norman]

What makes a socialist? This is an interesing question. I will give you the recipe passed down to me by my grandfather.

2 cups of dirt
3 cups of warm piss
1 Teaspoon of toenail shavings
1 horrible sense of self worth
1 illogical mind
1 inability to understand and appreciate greatness
1 hatred for all of humanity
1 of Al Gore's sense of humor
5 of Barbra Streissand's precious locks of nose hair
1 ability to excuse dictators and mass-murderers alike
1 ill-conceived version of economics
1 waste of skin
and a partridge in a pair tree

[Sirion]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 11:08 am on Jan. 5, 2003
What makes a socialist? This is an interesing question. I will give you the recipe passed down to me by my grandfather.

2 cups of dirt
3 cups of warm piss
1 Teaspoon of toenail shavings
1 horrible sense of self worth
1 illogical mind
1 inability to understand and appreciate greatness
1 hatred for all of humanity
1 of Al Gore's sense of humor
5 of Barbra Streissand's precious locks of nose hair
1 ability to excuse dictators and mass-murderers alike
1 ill-conceived version of economics
1 waste of skin
and a partridge in a pair tree

This wasnt EXACTLY what I was looking for (I think I mentioned I did'nt want idiocy like this somewhere in my first post). For those like Stormin, I will say it a bit easier:

I want to know what views on politics a person needs for you to consider him a socialist...

[Beccie]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 11:08 am on Jan. 5, 2003
What makes a socialist?
1 hatred for all of humanity

could you please explain how a socialist hates humanity more then a capitalist.

[Stormin Norman]

I posted that simply because you provoked me by mentioning my signature. I feel that this was exactly the type of response that you wanted, otherwise you wold not have mentioned yours truly. You knew I would not be able to resist, therefore you taunted me. If you wanted anything else you should not have directly attacked me. Since you failed on those counts, you got what you were asking for.

[Sirion]

Conspiracy theories all along!

Sorry, but this was never my opinion. I did not try to provoke you in any way, I only mentioned your sig because what it contains was a good example on the responses that I did not(I was looking for serious posts, not flames)...

So, anyone else?

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 11:08 am on Jan. 5, 2003
What makes a socialist? This is an interesing question. I will give you the recipe passed down to me by my grandfather.

2 cups of dirt
3 cups of warm piss
1 Teaspoon of toenail shavings
1 horrible sense of self worth
1 illogical mind
1 inability to understand and appreciate greatness
1 hatred for all of humanity
1 of Al Gore's sense of humor
5 of Barbra Streissand's precious locks of nose hair
1 ability to excuse dictators and mass-murderers alike
1 ill-conceived version of economics
1 waste of skin
and a partridge in a pair tree

lmao....stormin normin, you're the greatest. This is all a big joke to you isn't it? what a character.

[Umoja]

Okay you guys aren't being logical. Most Cappies here are very hateful, and so are quite a few of the commies here. If you refuse to see the advantages of either system, then one can never truly understand their own.

Capitalism, is meant to ensure complete economic freedom for every individual. It removes government restrictions to trade, and ideally creates a huge amount of competition that leads to large advances in technology. Unfortunatly the competition spills down in much larger amounts then it should, with employers intentionally needing to use un-employment to control wages, which can lead to racism, and the over comsumtion caused by Capitalism is generally dangerous to the enviorment. This isn't all inclusive of Capitalism, but it's Capitalism in a nutshell.

[Michael De Panama]

Quote: from Stormin Norman on 5:08 am on Jan. 5, 2003
What makes a socialist? This is an interesing question. I will give you the recipe passed down to me by my grandfather.

2 cups of dirt
3 cups of warm piss
1 Teaspoon of toenail shavings
1 horrible sense of self worth
1 illogical mind
1 inability to understand and appreciate greatness
1 hatred for all of humanity
1 of Al Gore's sense of humor
5 of Barbra Streissand's precious locks of nose hair
1 ability to excuse dictators and mass-murderers alike
1 ill-conceived version of economics
1 waste of skin
and a partridge in a pair tree

Haha. Well, I know what makes a capitalist! Sheer cuteness! Teehee. :cheesy:

[HankMorgan]

What makes a socialist?

The belief that there should be equality of outcome, no matter how great the spread in ability, ambition or willingness to work. It is this belief that shackles the human spirit.

The belief that the person who has the idea and risks it all should benefit no more than anyone else. It is this belief that destroys incentive.

The ability to completely ignore basic facts of life such as a good or service is worth exactly what a willing buyer will pay for it. It is out of this mental illness that unworkable economic systems spring.

I could go on but I always feel guilty beating on someone down in the ash heap of history.

[synthesis]

The belief that there should be equality of outcome, no matter how great the spread in ability, ambition or willingness to work.

Communism is 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.' That is, likely, what you're thinking of.

Socialism is, from each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds. This in no way represents equality of outcome.

The ability to completely ignore basic facts of life such as a good or service is worth exactly what a willing buyer will pay for it. It is out of this mental illness that unworkable economic systems spring.

Unworkable? Norway's doing fantastically!

[HankMorgan]

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds" doesn't sound like equality of outcome or like any of the ideas I read in other parts of che-lives (long may it prosper).

If Norway is doing fantastically then their economic system must take into account facts of life such as market value. Imagine something being worth the labor it took to make it. That would make my 286 powered computer more valuable than the Athlon I'm driving right now. Silliness.

[bombeverything]

Quote: from Dark Capitalist on 6:59 pm on Jan. 5, 2003
Someone who uses the initiation of force in order to steal wealth from others in the name of compassion and social justice. They allow their own emotional distress over the state of others to drive them to the point where they no longer respect the rule of law.

What about the rule of natural law, or natural order? What about the law of reason? I [alongside many others] believe that nature works best without interference. This 'emotional distress' you are referring to is otherwise known as compassion.

[Umoja]

Since your 286 took more effort to make, of course it would be more valuable then your Atholon, that shows that advances in technologies simplify labor, and can lower cost, instead of increasing them.

[HankMorgan]

I'm not sure if you're pulling my leg Umoja.

[antieverything]

OK, I don't know about the rest of these guys, but I recognize that the labor theory of value is a gross oversimplification. Almost all value is instilled in a good through labor...somewhere down the road but at every level of this ladder of production (remember that the machines that make the machines have parts that are made by people) capital (in the form of machines) is still used to make labor more efficient. Labor AND capital give something value but capital cannot exist without the other...when it can, humanity ceases to have a purpose and let's just not get into the science fiction issue. The argument, therefore, shouldn't be about what produces wealth but rather which part of the production is more deserving of the wealth created: Labor or capital. Capital can exist without a capitalist...it isn't a human entity but labor is and only people have use for wealth.



This was supposed to be a SHORT post...can you believe it?

(Edited by antieverything at 3:50 am on Jan. 6, 2003)

[HankMorgan]

Labor doesn't impart any value to a product. For example, a man might put mighty effort into digging a hole in my front yard. Lots of labor but no value. In fact to me the hole would have negative value. If there is such a thing. A good or service is only worth what a willing buyer will pay.

Which leads to the second, more interesting part of your post, antieverything. I see where you're going with the idea of what part of the production is more deserving of the wealth created. There has to be reward for the innovation and risk needed to created a new enterprise (means of production for you folks). In your effort to see that labor not capital is rewarded, you throw out the incentive for risk and innovation. If there isn't a reward, the enterprise is never created.

There is another sad truth. The labor you seek to reward is a service that itself has a value determined by the market. Unfortunately the market value of a worker's effort may be below even a subsistence level.

The answer is to create more job opportunities for the worker. When there are more jobs relative to the number of workers, the market value of each worker goes up. That's what I want and I bet you do too.

What's the best way to create more jobs? That's easy. Make it more profitable to create a new enterprise (means of production). Give more reward to the people with the big ideas who are ready to bet everything on its success.

The fundamental idea is to work with human nature, not try to change human nature.

(Edited by HankMorgan at 12:20 am on Jan. 6, 2003)

[antieverything]

The value of labor is derived from market forces...there is no demand for a hole in the middle of a yard.

About innovation...market forces are important to keep production up and efficiency high, I agree. I don't agree that only a capitalist can create something new.

On this point, you are wrong...I agree that labor's value is determined by a market but markets are human creations and should be subject to human values. It is not consistant with the human values (you sure love "freedom" but what about freedom to live?) of our society for those who produce needed goods to not be rewarded in a way which is fair in our standards...not just by the market's standards. Markets are great but should be subordinate to the goals we use them for, they are not our gods.

The supply side ideas of job production and trickle down economics are severly flawed but it's late and I'll get into that later. (you do remember the Reagan years, don't you?) It is most profitable for capitalists to keep a number of workers unemployed and impoverished. Sure, the industrial revolution could have resulted in full employment and incredible production with less work on the part of each working man but that wouldn't be very profitable for those in control.

The fundamental idea is to create a system that works AND is compatible with human values. If market worship is compatible with your values, fine...but the rest of humanity would beg to differ.
[hr]
Oh, in reference to your 286, the worker is not payed in regards to the market value of the computer ten years in the future but of it at the time of production.