Thread: World Socialist Movement: ultra-leftist sectarians?

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    Default World Socialist Movement: ultra-leftist sectarians?

    First of all, to left-communists reading the title, this is not aimed at your politics.

    I am rather shocked at the BS I've read in the WSM website regarding their REALLY UTOPIAN views of "socialism" (which, in reality, is their substitution for the communist mode of production, which they wish to come IMMEDIATELY after revolution ):

    http://www.worldsocialism.org/articl...r_vouchers.php

    Originally Posted by WSM
    The technical ability exists today to produce, in an ecologically responsible manner, more than enough to satisfy the self-defined needs of the world's population. There will not be a shortage of goods and therefore, artificial access limitations—labour vouchers—will not be required.
    These ultra-leftists forget what Marx said in Critique of the Gotha Programme:

    In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!

    For example, who amongst janitors can become doctors immediately? [Although the converse is possible, a lot of manual and clerical workers cannot become professional workers.] Who can have a modern equivalent of "Renaissance" education?

    Originally Posted by WSM
    Labour vouchers would tend to maintain the idea that our human worth is determined by how much or how many goods we can own (or produce).
    What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges.

    People will want full value for their labour (nurtured "self-interest" is still in play)!

    Originally Posted by WSM
    Labour vouchers imply that someone must police who takes the goods produced by society. In other words there must be people who spend their time ensuring that other people do not take things without paying for them. That is normal in a profit oriented society, but a waste of human labour in socialism.
    I wonder if these ultra-leftists are actually the anarchist equivalent of the Marxist strain of "ultra-leftism." In other words, no state? Never mind:

    http://www.worldsocialism.org/articl..._different.php

    # claims that socialism will, and must, be a wageless, moneyless, worldwide society of common (not state) ownership and democratic control of the means of wealth production and distribution.
    # claims that socialism will be a sharp break with capitalism with no "transition period" or gradual implementation of socialism (although socialism will be a dynamic, changing society once it is established).
    # claims that there can be no state in a socialist society.


    Originally Posted by WSM
    People will make rational consumption choices.
    See, these ultra-leftists really need haven't considered greedy psychopaths:

    http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath3.htm



    What the hell is with WSM and their outlook?
    "A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)

    "A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
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    [FONT=Arial]May I say, this looks to be an interesting thread

    Originally Posted by WSM
    The technical ability exists today to produce, in an ecologically responsible manner, more than enough to satisfy the self-defined needs of the world's population. There will not be a shortage of goods and therefore, artificial access limitations—labour vouchers—will not be required.
    I would actually agree with this statement. It is important not to be confused by the WSM's confusing labels. We distinguish between the 3 stages of post-capitalist society: the transitional economy (not Mandel's absurd idea of a transitional society), the lower phase of communism (socialism) and the higher phase of communism.

    The above statement is correct in saying that a period of socialism (that is, a stateless, classless society where the means of production are held in common, with labour performed collectively, where goods must be rationed out due to the inadequatancy of the forces of production to yeild a super-abundance in production) is no longer be necessary assuming a world revolution.

    Originally Posted by JR
    For example, who amongst janitors can become doctors immediately? [Although the converse is possible, a lot of manual and clerical workers cannot become professional workers.] Who can have a modern equivalent of "Renaissance" education?
    Why must the social division of labour be made to wither away during a period of socialism. Why is it not possible for it to die during the period of transition from Capitalism to Communism?

    Originally Posted by JR
    People will want full value for their labour (nurtured "self-interest" is still in play)!
    Again I pose the question, if socialism is superseded by the development of the forces of production, why is a period of socialism still necessary for this self-interest to die out? Can this supposedly "natural human desire" wither away along with the transition from Capitalism to Communism (the period of transition).

    Originally Posted by WSM
    Labour vouchers imply that someone must police who takes the goods produced by society. In other words there must be people who spend their time ensuring that other people do not take things without paying for them. That is normal in a profit oriented society, but a waste of human labour in socialism.
    This statement makes no sense only because you are reading it with your own definitions in place and not those of the WSM. Of course the use of labour-time vouchers is a senseless concept in the higher phase of communist society. Labour-time vouchers made sense only in Marx's day when a social super-abundance could not be ensured without a period where the means of production where to be rapidly developed (socialism/lower phase of communism).

    Originally Posted by JR
    What the hell is with WSM and their outlook?
    Me thinks it's largely a matter of definitions are their inability (or maybe the inability of the advocates of Labour-time vouchers) to put the idea in context. [/FONT]
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    People will want full value for their labour (nurtured "self-interest" is still in play)!
    A tangential point - even if people want to have the full value of what they produce, it will be necessary to make deductions, so as to allow for the expansion of the forces of production (so that a greater quantity of goods can be produced) the replacement of machinery which has deteriorated through use, and providing support to people who are not able to work. Marx addresses this issue in the Critique of the Gotha Programme, in response to Lassalle's support for payment of the "undiminished proceeds of labour".

    Jacob, in many threads you have expressed support for the use of LTVs, and you often use the same quote to show that Marx may also have supported this distribution mechanism. The basis of Marx's argument against a rigid egalitarian distribution is that, following the overthrow of capitalism, people will still possess the ideas of capitalist society and so will expect to be rewarded if they do more work than other workers (birthmarks of the old society etc). If this is so (and I think this is a realistic assumption) then would LTVs be an accepted distribution mechanism? Under an LTV system, people who work for the same length of time would be given the same "wage" but what if there are workers who are able to produce more goods in the same amount of time? Surely they would demand to be payed more than a worker who is not able to meet the same level of output or produces goods which are of inferior quality? LTVs do not account for the intensity of labour, only duration.

    Perhaps the most absurd aspect of the WSM's programme is:

    promotes a peaceful democratic revolution, achieved through force of numbers and understanding.
    This is idealistic - the bourgeoisie will not be willing to surrender control of wealth (and the power they are able to derive from wealth) without some form of armed struggle - and a failure to recognize this basic reality will allow for the crushing of the workers revolution.

    Also:

    noted, in 1918, that the Bolshevik Revolution was not socialist. Had earlier, long noted that Russia was not ready for a socialist revolution.
    Menshivism much?
    Last edited by BobKKKindle$; 21st June 2008 at 11:15.
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    John Sullivvan on the SPGB (UK section of the World socialist movement)
    [FONT=Arial]The Socialist Party of Great Britain (SPGB)[/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial]The oldest socialist party, the SPGB, was founded in 1904, when the Left wing of the Social Democratic Federation (SDF) rejected the opportunist politics of Hyndman, Marx’s bête noir, the leader of their parent group, which culminated in congratulating King Edward on his accession to the throne. The original Left faction was a confused amalgam which included some people in London and a number of Scots comrades influenced by the American Marxist/Syndicalist Daniel de Leon. Unfortunately De Leon’s ideas came to them through the agency of the Edinburgh adventurer James Connolly who ended his career as an Irish nationalist and Catholic martyr. Instead of fighting to win the SDF to a Marxist policy the Scots broke away in 1903 to form the Socialist Labour Party (SLP), leaving the London SDF members compromised and isolated. The following year they themselves split from the SDF and formed the SPGB. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial]The double dealing of the faction which formed the SLP made the SPGB an angry and suspicious group from the beginning. That was demonstrated by the Declaration of Principles (D of P), carried in the first issue of its journal, the Socialist Standard. The key part of the document is Clause 7, the famous "hostility clause", which states: "That as all political parties are but the expression of class interests, and as the interest of the working class is diametrically opposed to the interests of all sections of the master class, the party which seeks working class emancipation must be hostile to every other party." [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial]The "hostility clause" was a stroke of genius which expresses the essence of the SPGB and achieved a simple formula for achieving isolation and non-cooperation which the party’s rivals try to obtain through confused and inconsistent dialectical contortions. Religious sects achieve the same effect by shaving their heads or wearing distinctive clothes. The hostility to other groups was reciprocated from the beginning, as the SPGB’s insistence on writing in plain English caused great offence: most Left groups consider that a church must have its own language and liturgy, and have laboriously constructed a jargon comprehensible only to the initiated. The SPGB’s insistence on using the vernacular has provoked much the same response as that of the Papacy towards those who translated the Bible into the common tongue. The D of P has never been seriously challenged and the party has never looked back. It has been fortunate in finding a biographer in Robert Baltrop, whose book The Monument is a truthful and warmly affectionate account of a group whose aggression and cantankerousness have placed a strain on the tolerance of most people who encounter them. People have the impression that a group bound to a doctrine first enunciated in 1904 must be composed of dogmatic robots. Nothing could be further from the truth! The SPGB was, until recently, full of the most delightful and varied eccentrics one could hope to meet. The reason for this is that although the D of P is sacrosanct it covers only the question of how the socialist society will be brought about. The party, in contrast to many other sects, does not try to regulate its members’ domestic lives, eating habits, or personal relationships. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial]The party’s formula for achieving socialism is beautifully simple: the workers are to become individually convinced of the socialist case and when that has been done they will vote in a government which will decree socialism at a stroke. No attention is given to boring questions of tactics or strategy. The SPGB thus achieves the unique distinction of being both constitutional and revolutionary. Through this formula the SPGB avoids the strains which drive other socialists to drink or revisionism. The very simplicity of the formula might seem to rule out the possibility of discussion. However, the D of P, inflexible as it is in the area which it covers, does not specify what the society of the future will be like: consequently, SPGB meetings, whatever the ostensible topic, quickly tend to gravitate towards discussion on precisely this theme. Under socialism will we be vegetarian, monogamous or not? Will we still live in cities? Will we use more or less water, and will goods still be mass-produced? Visitors to SPGB meetings, expecting to hear solemn Marxists discussing how to overthrow the bourgeoisie, are usually surprised and charmed. No speculation is forbidden by the D of P, so imaginations can soar, unfettered by the tedious discussions on tactics and strategy which form the content of most socialist theory. Even the least imaginative of the speculations are more appealing than descriptions of the Christians’ dreary, male chauvinist, heaven. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial]It is accepted sociological wisdom that any organisation which has existed for three generations should have achieved a measure of family continuity, and so be relieved of the constant necessity to win converts from the outside world. As the SPGB is the only political sect which has been around long enough to test the theory on it has attracted more attention from sociologists than from students of politics. In fact, the SPGB’s achievement there has, not yet, equalled that of any established religious sect. What does happen, according to Barltrop, is that new members join because of social relationships rather than formal propaganda, which serves as a diversion for the members rather than as a source of recruitment. The party is, apart from the Discussion Group, the only socialist organisation which is at all difficult to join. Members have to satisfy a committee that they understand the SPGB’s case: in contrast, the vanguard groups will accept anyone who does as she is told. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial]In the 1950s the SPGB seemed like a survivor of the Edwardian era, rather like the Secular Society with whose cultural milieu it overlaps. However, just as that scene was rejuvenated by a revival of interest in the Universities, so to a lesser extent was the SPGB. This has changed the internal atmosphere, in ways which are sometimes worrying. Discipline, once draconian, has become very lax: some of the younger members interpretation of the "hostility clause" is frankly alarming. They argue that the while the D of P enjoins hostility to rival organisations, this need not be extended to the members of such organisations. On a strictly legalistic reading of the D of P this is perhaps allowable, but it would severely weaken the social effect of the hostility clause. It would never have been accepted by the stalwarts who built the party, and goes against its whole tradition. Some of the new wave wish to substitute a plan to transform society gradually through the growth of co-operatives for the party’s traditional programme of an immediate transition to socialism, once it has a firm parliamentary majority. It would be sad indeed if a party which fought so long against the Social Democratic theory of gradualism were to succumb to the life-stylism which has destroyed so many of its rivals. [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial]As we reach the fag end of the 20th century, thoughts inevitably turn towards the centenary celebrations in 2004. Conway Hall has been looking a bit dowdy in recent years, but it is a central spot with many associations for socialists, so it might well be the site for the festivities. A committee will be set up to determine the precise form which these will take, as the party does not believe in arbitrary decisions by authoritarian leaders. It can look forward with quiet confidence. Membership has grown from a mere 100 founders to nearly 700. In contrast, most of its early rivals have passed into history, and later competitors are in disarray. The Communist Party is splintered and in apparently terminal decline, while the Labour Party has abandoned whatever socialist rhetoric it once employed to deceive the masses. The Socialist Workers Party no longer attracts intelligent young people as it did in the early 1970s, so the SPGB can look forward to having the field to itself. The apolitical sociologists asking boring questions about the party’s social composition are a nuisance, but the D of P has nothing to say about them.[/FONT]

    THE Socialist Party is in some ways the most extreme of all left organisations. It stands for nothing less than complete socialism now and has no time for Labour governments, Alternative Economic Plans, or any kind of transitional strategy.
    On the other hand, the SPGB can be seen as moderate. Its activity consists of contesting elections, selling its publications and giving lectures. It abhors violence and sees no reason why the socialist society should not be smoothly inaugurated once it gets a parliamentary majority. It is this legalism which has prompted the gibe that they are the Small Party of Good Boys.
    The SPGB is sometimes ridiculed for having so few members after 77 years’ work. (This gibe surely loses force as the groups formed in the 1960s settle into middle age without having found a way to the masses.)
    Of course, an organisation founded in 1904 will differ in many ways from one founded in 1968. The SPGB split from the main Marxist organisation, the Social Democratic Federation, over a reformism which led it to congratulate King Edward on his accession to the throne. The left wing of the SDF was outraged and formed an opposition tendency. Some mainly Scots comrades jumped the gun and split in 1903 forming the Socialist Labour Party, leaving the London-based SPGB to go it alone in 1904. The SLP were then under the influence of James Connolly; his encouragement of their precipitate split was one of his many disservices to the labour movement.
    The SPGB suffered from its opposition to both world wars, members being forced to go on the run in World War I and having difficulty with the tribunals when asking for conscientious objector status in World War II.
    The advantages of a long existence without major splits include being able to recruit from the children of members, rather than having to depend entirely on recruiting outsiders. This internal recruitment, in its turn, produces greater stability than exists among newer groups.
    In private, the older leaders of most left groups envy the SPGB’s peace and stability, but they know that their younger members must be offered something more dramatic.
    Strength: about 600
    http://marxists.architexturez.net/hi...ivan/index.htm

    Devrim
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    May I say, this looks to be an interesting thread
    Thanks, comrade!

    It is important not to be confused by the WSM's confusing labels. We distinguish between the 3 stages of post-capitalist society: the transitional economy (not Mandel's absurd idea of a transitional society), the lower phase of communism (socialism) and the higher phase of communism.
    What was so absurd, or was it based on (albeit worker-controlled) state-capitalist monopoly over all economic affairs?

    The above statement is correct in saying that a period of socialism (that is, a stateless, classless society where the means of production are held in common, with labour performed collectively, where goods must be rationed out due to the inadequacy of the forces of production to yeild a super-abundance in production) is no longer be necessary assuming a world revolution.
    Ah, but even if Marx assumed rationing here, he didn't write of such in the Critique of the Gotha Programme. Taken out of its rationing context, what he wrote there is quite valid.

    Why must the social division of labour be made to wither away during a period of socialism. Why is it not possible for it to die during the period of transition from Capitalism to Communism?
    Comrade, you have a point. But then again, we're talking about people who wish to skip right to "classless social democracy" (which, methinks, is a more accurate term to describe "communism").

    Again I pose the question, if socialism is superseded by the development of the forces of production, why is a period of socialism still necessary for this self-interest to die out? Can this supposedly "natural human desire" wither away along with the transition from Capitalism to Communism (the period of transition).
    You forget to note that there are "psychopathic consumers" out there. If somebody wants full value of their labour to consistently buy expensive jewellery and show off, that really isn't a "need," per se.

    This statement makes no sense only because you are reading it with your own definitions in place and not those of the WSM. Of course the use of labour-time vouchers is a senseless concept in the higher phase of communist society. Labour-time vouchers made sense only in Marx's day when a social super-abundance could not be ensured without a period where the means of production where to be rapidly developed (socialism/lower phase of communism).
    Actually, more and more I hold an "effective communist" position on this matter, in order to accommodate the "psychopathic consumers."

    In a classless social-democratic society, there will be two "economies": the factual gift "economy" and the effective-gift "economy."

    Why? Simply put, it's due to the nature of labour credit (with the modern technology today, the computer scientist Cockshott and the economist Cottrell have suggested labour credit as the modern equivalent): it has an expiry date.

    There is a formal recognition of the full value of one's labour (albeit after deductions for the common funds), but because of this full value, most people won't spend everything.

    Me thinks it's largely a matter of definitions are their inability (or maybe the inability of the advocates of Labour-time vouchers) to put the idea in context.
    Hmmm...





    the replacement of machinery which has deteriorated through use, and providing support to people who are not able to work. Marx addresses this issue in the Critique of the Gotha Programme, in response to Lassalle's support for payment of the "undiminished proceeds of labour"
    Did you even bother to read my "Social Proletocracy" article? I specifically mentioned infrastructure (and since I'm a business student with related work, I believe the term you're looking for here is depreciation ), retirees and the disabled (plus the "etc." qualifier).

    Under an LTV system, people who work for the same length of time would be given the same "wage" but what if there are workers who are able to produce more goods in the same amount of time? Surely they would demand to be paid more than a worker who is not able to meet the same level of output or produces goods which are of inferior quality? LTVs do not account for the intensity of labour, only [I]duration.
    Um, under capitalist production right now workers are NOT paid by piece work, which you seem to advocate (like child labour).

    Besides, those who produce inferior quality are replaced by more competent workers.

    Cockshott and Cottrell talked about guaranteed employment, but not guaranteed employment AT THE SAME JOB (the Soviet fetish)!

    This is idealistic - the bourgeoisie will not be willing to surrender control of wealth (and the power they are able to derive from wealth) without some form of armed struggle - and a failure to recognize this basic reality will allow for the crushing of the workers revolution.
    Finally, something specific where I agree with you. They're just like the DeLeonists and their parliamentary reductionism, I'm afraid.
    "A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)

    "A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
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    Originally Posted by Jacob Richter
    For example, who amongst janitors can become doctors immediately? [Although the converse is possible, a lot of manual and clerical workers cannot become professional workers.] Who can have a modern equivalent of "Renaissance" education?
    There are two separate issues here, IMO: the first is to do with the necessity of labour-time vouchers (or similar schemes), and the second is with the full-blown establishment of communism wherein we will have abashed the “subordination of the individual to the division of labour”. Denying the necessity of the former doesn’t imply that we can get the latter immediately. I suppose in a sense it is naive for the WSM to say that we can get started with communism from day one, nevertheless, I think they have a point: many of the transitional period programs (labour-time vouchers, state-monopoly capitalism, etc.) advocated by Marxists in the past might no longer be applicable or necessary given advancements in technology.

    Originally Posted by Jacob Richter
    What we have to deal with here is a communist society, not as it has developed on its own foundations, but, on the contrary, just as it emerges from capitalist society; which is thus in every respect, economically, morally, and intellectually, still stamped with the birthmarks of the old society from whose womb it emerges.
    Indeed. People of overlook the fact that any post-revolutionary society will be build upon the ashes of the old order, and will contain remnants thereof.

    Originally Posted by Jacob Richter
    People will want full value for their labour (nurtured "self-interest" is still in play)!
    That raises a question: why wouldn’t people get the full value for their labour without labour-time vouchers? We are presuming that it is possible to establish material abundance, with most, if not all, goods. You yourself admit in this thread that it likely wouldn’t be the case that people would consumer all of their labour-time vouchers. Under such circumstances labour-time vouchers would only more or less serve a psychological role of convincing people that they are getting their “fare share” by putting a number on it.

    Originally Posted by Jacob Richter
    See, these ultra-leftists really need haven't considered greedy psychopaths.
    I’m not sure how relevant that is in the context of abundance, after all, presumably enough would be created to satisfy even the psychopathic consumer. Not to mention, I think there might be other ways to deal with psychopaths.
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    Originally Posted by Jacob Richter
    You forget to note that there are "psychopathic consumers" out there. If somebody wants full value of their labour to consistently buy expensive jewellery and show off, that really isn't a "need," per se.
    Would expensive jewellery even be produced under socialism? Presumably the means of production would be under democratic control; as such I would assume people would prioritize the satisfaction of necessities prior to creating luxuries. I don’t think that we should waste our time with such useless goods, especially when we can create less expensive facsimiles if people really want jewellery. Hence, I don’t think that even if we had LTV, and someone wanted to “buy” luxury jewellery, that they could, if for no other reason that it wouldn’t be produced.
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    many of the transitional period programs (labour-time vouchers, state-monopoly capitalism, etc.) advocated by Marxists in the past might no longer be applicable or necessary given advancements in technology
    Careful, comrade. "Labour-time vouchers" as a physical form (tickets) aren't necessary, but the general premise behind them is. In this day and age, "labour credits" based on supercomputers, debit cards, credit cards, etc. would be necessary.

    Indeed. People of overlook the fact that any post-revolutionary society will be build upon the ashes of the old order, and will contain remnants thereof.
    So were you attacking the physical form of labour-time vouchers, or the necessity of almost-equal exchange (your labour for someone else's labour less "common fund" deductions)?


    You yourself admit in this thread that it likely wouldn’t be the case that people would consumer all of their labour-time vouchers. Under such circumstances labour-time vouchers would only more or less serve a psychological role of convincing people that they are getting their “fare share” by putting a number on it.
    This "magnetosphere" of psychology is very important (social-proletocratic cultural hegemony). It'll lead to a much easier transition.

    I’m not sure how relevant that is in the context of abundance, after all, presumably enough would be created to satisfy even the psychopathic consumer. Not to mention, I think there might be other ways to deal with psychopaths.
    Such as?

    Would expensive jewellery even be produced under socialism? Presumably the means of production would be under democratic control; as such I would assume people would prioritize the satisfaction of necessities prior to creating luxuries. I don’t think that we should waste our time with such useless goods, especially when we can create less expensive facsimiles if people really want jewellery. Hence, I don’t think that even if we had LTV, and someone wanted to “buy” luxury jewellery, that they could, if for no other reason that it wouldn’t be produced.
    What about pure-gold articles? People are still fascinated with gold.
    "A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)

    "A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
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    [FONT=Verdana]
    Originally Posted by Jacob Richter
    Careful, comrade. "Labour-time vouchers" as a physical form (tickets) aren't necessary, but the general premise behind them is. In this day and age, "labour credits" based on supercomputers, debit cards, credit cards, etc. would be necessary.
    [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]If I understand you correctly what you seem to be saying is that an accounting system is necessary, which I agree with, but there’s no reason why such an accounting system need take the form of labour-credits (you could instead use direct material accounting, or energy credits, or whatever). Though, even if say these alternate accounting methods could be used to handle the planning process, the question of distribution still remains (this is what I think you have in mind when you mention debit cards, credit cards, etc.)

    All you would need to do is keep track of consumption for planning purposes, you don’t have to set limits to said consumption. For instance, everyone could still have a debit card that they swipe when they requisition some good or service, but without having any credits deducted from said card. Hence we don’t need credits (of any sort) to account for consumption.

    Of course, once again, all of this assumes abundance. It could be the case that in certain areas of the economy things will still remain scarce, in such a case then we would need some sort of credit scheme to account for the consumption of such a scarce good or service. Nevertheless, in the case of goods and services for which abundance can be attained, we can immediately transition to a gift economy.
    [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana]
    Originally Posted by Jacob Richter
    Such as?
    [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][FONT=&quot]Well, the guillotine might be one such way. [/FONT][/FONT]
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    If I understand you correctly what you seem to be saying is that an accounting system is necessary, which I agree with
    Hehehe, Lenin talked about Big Bank "socialism" (as quoted in my WIP), but even if he was wrong here, indeed he used the words "accounting" and "bookkeeping."

    but there’s no reason why such an accounting system need take the form of labour-credits (you could instead use direct material accounting, or energy credits, or whatever). Though, even if say these alternate accounting methods could be used to handle the planning process, the question of distribution still remains (this is what I think you have in mind when you mention debit cards, credit cards, etc.)
    That is correct: to be more precise, "fair" distribution that circumvents capital-as-process.

    All you would need to do is keep track of consumption for planning purposes, you don’t have to set limits to said consumption. For instance, everyone could still have a debit card that they swipe when they requisition some good or service, but without having any credits deducted from said card. Hence we don’t need credits (of any sort) to account for consumption.
    I'm not sure - how, then, can labour value be accounting for throughout the system?

    Nevertheless, in the case of goods and services for which abundance can be attained, we can immediately transition to a gift economy.
    Internet work could be one such area already (hence "multi-economy").

    Well, the guillotine might be one such way.
    I only reserve executions (among other, more utilitarian measures, of course) for outright class enemies, class traitors, and serial non-political criminals (like serial killers). I have no problems with genetically psychopathic consumers (unless their "consumption" threatens the socioeconomic system as a whole).
    "A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)

    "A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
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    Originally Posted by Jacob Richter
    I'm not sure - how, then, can labour value be accounting for throughout the system?
    Well, in the case of energy credits, working for x amount of time would consume y amount of energy, so in that manner you could use energy accounting to account for the contribution of labour to the production process.

    As for direct material accounting, I suppose that is a bit more tricky; you’d like have to use labour-time as your accounting system for measuring labour value, given that there is no single unit by which you’re accounting for all parts of the production process.

    Originally Posted by Jacob Richter
    Internet work could be one such area already (hence "multi-economy").
    Yes, software is one example where we can already implement this, it wouldn’t even require any transition from the present system, we could have software abundance (and gift economy) from day 1.

    Originally Posted by Jacob Richter
    I only reserve executions (among other, more utilitarian measures, of course) for outright class enemies, class traitors, and serial non-political criminals (like serial killers). I have no problems with genetically psychopathic consumers (unless their "consumption" threatens the socioeconomic system as a whole).
    I was joking.
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    I know you were, comrade.

    [I'm still waiting for Bobkindles and Comrade Zeitgeist.]
    "A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)

    "A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
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    Originally Posted by Bobkindles
    LTVs do not account for the intensity of labour, only duration.
    Why so? Why should the labour-time voucher be based on quantitative labour-time and not qualitative labour-time, that is labour-time as compared with socially necessary labour-time.

    Let us take a hypothetical. Person A works for 4 hours. Person B on the other hand works for 8 hours but produces only as much as Person A because of laziness. Why should Person A be "paid" half of what person B does? If labour-time vouchers where distibuted according to socially-necessary labour time, Person B would recieve x hours worth and Person A would recieve 2x hours worth.

    Originally Posted by JR
    What was so absurd, or was it based on (albeit worker-controlled) state-capitalist monopoly over all economic affairs?
    Mandel's non-sense is demolished here. The article is actually written by Adam Buick a member of the SPGB (you reference his work on Bordiga in your WIP).

    Originally Posted by JR
    Ah, but even if Marx assumed rationing here, he didn't write of such in the Critique of the Gotha Programme. Taken out of its rationing context, what he wrote there is quite valid.
    If taken out of it's historic context, what Marx wrote is today only valid during the transition.

    Originally Posted by JR
    You forget to note that there are "psychopathic consumers" out there. If somebody wants full value of their labour to consistently buy expensive jewellery and show off, that really isn't a "need," per se.
    I would say psychopathic consumerism is a very very very minor problem, where as the phenomenon of consumerism/materialism is a totally ideological one which will die away with the transition.
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    The SPGB's (and WSM's) approach seems to be a very low-yield/low-stress type of affair, meaning they don't expect to have a huge impact on daily events in a short time span (instead counting on the slow accumulation of their educational and persuasive efforts over time), but this also means that being a part of the organization is very low-impact. One is not apparently ordered around to devote a lot of time and energy (and money) to various reformist campaigns (and nor does the SPGB try to intrude a whole lot into personal lives, it seems). Instead, one quietly makes one's case to people, and otherwise the group's activities consist of refining their internal socialist vision through imaginative discussions. I expect that, for this reason, they have a very low "burnout" of activists who join. So even though they probably aren't constantly getting new recruits (and pushing their existing members to do constant recruiting drives), they keep the members that they do have for a whole, and those members become more knowledgeable and higher-quality members over time. This has probably contributed to the organization's longevity. I think this is a worthwhile model that bears some consideration for prospective leftist groups.

    One could perhaps draw a contrast with an organization like the RCP, which I might tentatively classify (given I don't know a whole lot about what the internal dynamics of the organization feel like) as a high-yield, high-stress type of organization. It's involved in multiple reformist campaigns, and its members are expected to be very active with these campaigns, with getting new recruits, with selling the newspaper, and with tailoring their personal lives to be in harmony with the Party. This produces bursts of impressive activity (such as the start of the WCW campaign), followed by an aftermath of dwindling presence and, I assume, increasing burnout and "turnover." This seems to be the model that most leftist organizations follow (CPUSA in the '30s, for instance, which apparently had a pretty much perpetually revolving door of new recruits and burnt-out members leaving), so maybe it's time that some organizations give the other model a chance....

    Edit: I'd also like to add that it seems like a lot of reformist mass parties use this low yield-low stress approach already as well (and maybe that's one small reason why they have better luck attracting and keeping average working people involved, people who have busy daily lives to worry about as well). That said, these reformist mass parties are, 1, reformist, and 2, not so keen on member education as much as ordering members around in reformist campaigns. WSM at least seems to be trying to avoid those problems while still maintaining the low yield-low stress model of membership involvement.
    Last edited by Comrade-Z; 24th June 2008 at 07:04. Reason: Elaboration
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    Well, methinks the two examples you've given are two extremes. There is, however, a happy medium that needs to be seriously considered in building a mass party (which Lars Lih also considered to be a vanguard party):

    Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands
    "A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)

    "A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
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    Phase of Socialism could theoretically be very short. When Glorious Soviet Motherland has conquered planet, all productive forces could be utilised to usher in new golden era of plenty! A paradise for Man!

    Only question is: Is Man ready or will new material conditions overflow his Mind, turning Him crazy?

    Yours truely
    Davyd Martynovich Smertin
    KGB Officer
    First Librarian
    CRIME
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    Well, methinks the two examples you've given are two extremes. There is, however, a happy medium that needs to be seriously considered in building a mass party (which Lars Lih also considered to be a vanguard party):

    Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands
    "A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)

    "A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
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    What is your opinion on Cockshott & Cottrell? I know our Glorious Leader is very fond of them.

    Yours truely
    Davyd Martynovich Smertin
    KGB Officer
    First Librarian
    CRIME
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    Snore.
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    ^^^ Do you have any comments on Comrade-Z's remarks?
    "A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)

    "A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)

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