I think the cappies want us to five up all of our possesions, and then take them from us.
Now I know for sure that CI is gonna reply.
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Capitalism today ruins every single belief that you have. Capitalism finds every thing to start to sell stuff to every living executive bastard in the U.S. The other day I was watching the news and now Gucci and other designer companies are starting to make stuff for practicing yoga. A stupid stupid yoga matt with a brand costs $350. This is rediculus. All so the belives of yoga say that it is the not the stuff you have it is the belive of feeling good. Is capitalism trying to destroy this today? Is capitalism wanting to make everything in to expensive merchendise? In my opinion FUCK CAPITALISM!!
I think the cappies want us to five up all of our possesions, and then take them from us.
Now I know for sure that CI is gonna reply.
you know what the funny thing about capitalism is? after they sell you crap you dont want, they give you back your money so that you do shit you dont want to do. capitalism is crap and i cant believe that people participate.
why cant the revolution be a mere stopping of the wheels of capitalism. quit buying, quit selling. share.
i say, money is nothing. i will not work for nothing; i will not mind giving up nothing.
give up on money. let the cappies be rich and when they find out that money has no more influence, they too will give it up.
"The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise." -John the Baptist
(Maybe Christianity isn't complete bull)
Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.23
capitialism as we all know exploits the poor and allows greedy bourgoise to rest on their laurels, but in practise communism has failed somewhat. What is inheritly wrong with humans as that they are corrupted by power (the ole quote power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely) and then the tyranny begins. Mao and Stalin together killed 46 million people and destroyed what marx and engels were trying to say. Thats whats so annoying about it!!
[quote]Quote: from Communist Chris on 6:03 pm on Oct. 18, 2002
This is CI...
"Capitalism today ruins every single belief that you have."
How?
"Capitalism finds every thing to start to sell stuff to every living executive bastard in the U.S."
It is one's chice to buy or not. At least we have the choice here. You have no such choice in communism
"The other day I was watching the news and now Gucci and other designer companies are starting to make stuff for practicing yoga. A stupid stupid yoga matt with a brand costs $350. This is rediculus."
great, that is your opinion, don't but it.
"All so the belives of yoga say that it is the not the stuff you have it is the belive of feeling good. Is capitalism trying to destroy this today?"
no, it is trying to make a legitimate profit. no one is forcing you to buy the mat. if you appreciate what yoga teaches, then this should not bother you
"Is capitalism wanting to make everything in to expensive merchendise? In my opinion FUCK CAPITALISM!!"
no, actually capitalism creates value-added processes that bring products to market at cost-efficiencies that communism could never hope to acheive, making for a much better standrd of living
that is why capitalism is the system that emerging markets want
Che Guevara wannabe
agreed that capitialism does bring some good things into society, more liberties etc. but its corrputed by people out to make fast buck by selling anything and everything, advertisments day in and day out attempt to brainwash us into buying their products and buy in their shops and many children are buying into this as they believe what they are saying is true. What the problem is is that some people get completely convinced by this scheme so they can't just chose not to buy their products because they've been brainwashed. The greed within corporations go way up and its impossible for me to see them as anything else but people out to steal my money from my and everyone elses wallet and they will stop and absolutely nothing to do it. A quote from fast food nation says that on a mcdonalds children site it told kids that ronald mcdonals was "the absolute authority in everything". Also, in schools now companies are paying for school books which literally tell lies. Oil companies tell how it isn't that bad and doesn't pollute the atmosphere that much and get away with it because they are paying for the books, it fills me with such indignation when i read that!!!
I ask you... how is the ability to control your fellow man a "freedom" of democratic society? Isn't democracy the separation from kings?
I say this, and this is where I stand. Our modern society has rid kings from power in the government, this is true, but the aristocracies still exist and still have overwhelming influence on the political democracy we have constructed for ourselves.
To HELL if the Kings created the nation, and fought for the land do they deserve the right to tax it as they wish!! Let rule be given to the people living in it.
To HELL if the Aristocrats created the company, and built the factories!! They deserve no right to decide how much we need to live!! Let the people working rule the company.
Democracy, in all walks of life. No power to kings.
Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.10
And who is an aristocrat, Iepilei? Do you define that backwards as anybody who builds a factory? That IS NOT aristocracy, that is MERITOCRACY. Nobody asks for your birth certificate when you try and start a business, they ask for your cash. Ask Bill Gates or Wayne Huizenga about their noble birth. As long as you have the freedom to not buy their products, you have the freedom to ignore their adds and throw off their influence. And puh-lease don't give me any of the "no choice but MS" argument. I use Linux, and everybody else could too, if they cared that much.
The ills of central and south America are not because of Capitalism, there has never been capitalism in either place. They have cronyism and aristocracy, now combined with huge amounts of socialism and microscopic pieces of capitalism. I think the communists were right in seeing something was terribly wrong there, but because they didn't understand capitalism, they didn't understand that they weren't looking at capitalism. They attacked the wrong enemy and made the situation worse, or at least not any better. The lack of freedom that has characterized all of the Spanish, Portugese, and French colonies has been their downfall, while the love of freedom that has characterized the British colonies has made them the crown jewels of the world. Can you not at least see this obvious trend?
(Edited by better off with at 6:24 am on Oct. 19, 2002)
"The ills of central and south America are not because of Caiptalism, there has never been capitalism in either place"
Your right. The ills of central and south america are because of AMERICAN and WESTERN capitalism and imperialism.
j
\"The president\'s a Bush, vice president\'s a Dick, so a whole lotta fuckin\' is what we gon get\"-Talib Kweli
\"The only way to be free is to be learned\"-Jose Marti
\"Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy\'s resistance without fighting\"-Sun Tzu \"The
J,
Explain the logic underlying that conclusion. I'll agree that America, in its most anti-freedom moments, has done some pretty silly things in central and south america. We have done things that are shocking and apalling, things that until you saw proof you would never believe could be done by a nation that by its nature should _support_ a people trying to throw off its dictators. HOWEVER, the problems were there always. We did not start them. The worst we have done is try to prevent a change from one sort of stupid system to a different (most likely to be bloodier) sort. We have made the mistake of thinking the enemy of our enemy is our friend, and thereby helping the aristocrats against the revolutionaries. We have made this mistake over and over again (Iran and Vietnam come immediately to mind), but just because we were not part of the solution does not mean we were the problem. If the revolutionaries had been pro-capitalism, they might have found more allies, and certainly would have found a cause that would have actually helped their lot.
conflict of definition.
I used aristocrats because most tend to be born into such families, plus the fact it's a familiar/well known term.
Fine then. But you were yet to refute the fact that allowing the capitalist form of economy only allows another form of monarch to rule. I'm not talking communism over capitalism, I'm saying capitalism hinders our democratic process within government. No sense trifling over terminology... we've better things to focus on.
(Edited by Iepilei at 1:41 am on Oct. 19, 2002)
Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.10
What so many US Governments have done through so many years and in so many countries around the world, as anybody can know just reading about FACTS in books, newspapers, radio or whatever media (besides experiencing it by yourself, if you were unfortunate enough), not only makes you see HOW they not only EVER cared a shit about the real needs of the people in Latin America, Asia or Africa (specially the natives of those continents), but it actually shows you up to what point, for those US Governments, those people weren´t even human beings. The only way you can behave in such a shameless way is by thinking that the other one is not even human at all, so "what the heck"! If they are not human, maybe I can despise them, destroy them, anihilate them all..., what the fuck!
US Governments not only supported dictatorships all over the world, but in too many cases they started them...
They never, EVER, offered their own people the possibility to choose any other kind of society. They taught their own people that Communism or Socialism were the Devil´s idea of a society(!!!). "Reds" are the bad ones, don´t you ever speak about them..., and so on. They only teach you, over and over again, that the richer you are, the more you are valuable as a "respectable" citizen. You give these ignorant and selfish ideas to desperate countries and you finally make their people to believe those fallacies..., and make them stop caring about the human being next to you.
HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!
\"Así se resignará (el oprimido) a vivir una vida que no es la suya como si fuera la única posible.\"
\"Thus he (the oppressed) will resign himself to live a life that is not his, as if it was the only possible one.\"
Eduardo Galeano.
Iepilei,
It may be a conflict of definition, but in this case the definition is everything. You can not work/learn/earn your way into an aristocracy's elite. In capitalist society you can and must, or somebody must do it for you (inheritance). The fact is, in a capitalist society you are free. Free to succeed. Free to fail. Often by your merits, but sometimes due to no fault of your own. That is life, and it can't be avoided. It can be denied, however, as a century of communist denial has proven. Denial didn't save the lives of the tens of millions killed by communism though. Denial can save modern communists from facing the facts though, so you need not worry about the facts.
As far as your "just a different monarch" statement, you'll have to make a more detailed accusation for me to find its obvious flaws, but in the absence of any real argument on your part I'll still offer this: in a monarchy, the rights are vested in the monarch, and your rights are by his sufferance; in a capitalist society rights are vested in the individual, and are at no other capitalist's sufferance. Bill Gates doesn't have any rights that you don't. People may doubt this when they see wealthy men go free on charges that would have hung a poor man (e.g. O.J. Simpson or Whitewater). All that I can offer there is the defense that sometimes things go wrong, but even when things go wrong in the capitalist system, the result isn't that bad. In other words, I'll take that over PURGES any day.
(Edited by better off with at 5:35 am on Oct. 19, 2002)
Panamerisen,
So we agree that the U.S. has doen some bad and silly things in South America. What do you have to say about my claim that the U.S. did not start this problem? My claim that the problems trace back to Spain and Portugal and their disdain for indivdual rights? Because this seems like an obvious conclusion given the number of examples on each side of the argument. Or is it just a coincidence that all of Spain and Portugal's colonies (and even Spain and Portugal themselves) lag the rest of the developed world, and have miserable records on supporting individual rights?
(Edited by better off with at 6:23 am on Oct. 19, 2002)
the wealthy can build economical empires, and pass them down. So in a way aristocracy can play a role. But with each new technological step comes a new pioneer, so the power-shifts.
Look when it all boils down you've got capitalism as nothing short of idealist, simply because it places the old and new worlds side-by-side... much the same reason anarchy and totalitarianism cannot work effectively... the struggles between the two rock the stability.
In our capitalist society, you give man the ability to rise to a great power within a great power (a nation). You expect this man to act against his greed, to provide jobs for his fellow man - to provide equality for his fellow man, and to not - under ANY circumstances - use this stance to manipulate or sway democracy.
Just as anarchy, you have nothing regulating anything. You cannot expect man in the face of a free market and unregulated power to stand by the wayside. Totalitariansim, you cannot operate humanity as machinery.
It's my opinion, that anytime you place liberal and conservative poles (govt/eco... not as a whole) in the same catergory, you obtain an uncontrollable conflict.
Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.10
better off with, you are absolutely right about the horrible behaving of Spanish and Portuguese, specially in colonial times. But so did English, French, Belgians..., being the only difference the fact that Spanish and Portuguese actually did mix themselves with the natives of the colonized populations. The other Europeans mostly anihilated them, or isolated them in reservations.
Columbus didn´t "discovered" America: Native Americans were already there! Columbus just taught the rest of the world that there was another continent (and remembering that he thought he just discovered a new way to India).
What I want to say is that AngloSaxons, French and other Europeans built up their -material- welfare by thieving the natives after they were destroyed or put aside. They built the "greatest" empires by exploiting the natives. And I know, of course, that Spanish and Portuguese did the same in too many cases...
Specifically, US Governments supported the worst dictatorships in too many countries. You don´t need to START the situation to be as criminal, that´s not a reason for going on with such negative situations.
HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE!
\"Así se resignará (el oprimido) a vivir una vida que no es la suya como si fuera la única posible.\"
\"Thus he (the oppressed) will resign himself to live a life that is not his, as if it was the only possible one.\"
Eduardo Galeano.
better off with-
The western capitalism and imperialism I talk about dates back to Spain and Portugal's expansion years. However, the west continues to interfere negatively in the affairs of C. and S. America.
For example, the US Defense Department has a military training facility in Georgia that is called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation. This facility is actually the renamed School of the Americas. Here, the US trains Latin Americans in military tactics. One of the most infamous graduates was Manuel Noriega. In 1999 Chile had 153 students at the SOA and Colombia had 150. The total number of students being trained in military tactics in 1999 was 652. The school has been notorious for its teachings that result in human rights abuses and undemocratic tactics. So that means the US is sending 652 people each year back to Latin America where they become leaders of much of the turmoil that troubles Latin America today.
The US is merely continuing the tradition of undemocratic involvment in S. and C. America.
Now, I am sure you are aware of the situation in Nicaragua during the 80s. The US, scared of the Socialist Sandanistas, executed an incredibly undemocratic operation preventing Daniel Ortega and the sandistas from taking power. The US was condemned by the world court and UN for executing what resulted in a sort of state sponsored terrorism.
You see, the problems stem from the Spanish and the Portugese imperialists. The legacy remains today and the US continues that legacy of destabilization today.
Check out the following links about the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation/School of the Americas:
http://www.soaw.org/new/
http://www.ciponline.org/facts/soa.htm
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Nov2000/b1...0_bt684-00.html
j
\"The president\'s a Bush, vice president\'s a Dick, so a whole lotta fuckin\' is what we gon get\"-Talib Kweli
\"The only way to be free is to be learned\"-Jose Marti
\"Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy\'s resistance without fighting\"-Sun Tzu \"The
You fool, are u so blind. Look around: EVERYTHING AROUND YOU COMES FROM A CORPORATION. Your brain is as dead as the mummie of Lennin.
Thank you, MaxB, for your well-thought contribution to this serious discussion.
For chrissake.
"advertisements attempt to brainwash you"
............and they will, ......................if you let them.....
but only if
-AK
"...I was drivin' across the valley floor/ Goin' past a scene of gore/ Something that had ended here/ Then I stopped in at a porno store/ And I saw among the pictures there/ A vision that was...very fair.../ Just a moment from yesteryear/ ...All I could do was stare..." ------ Frank Black
