Need help with "Das Kapital" please...

[Grunt]

well it depends, do you believe in centralised power, espcially in regards to the transiatory state? If so you're a communist by the sounds of it.

Yes I belive in centralized power during the transition period.
Then education of the people begins - to make them realize that
greed and envy can not be cornerstones of a society.

And also that they - in the end - really don't need a state. No gods
and no masters.

Slowly, depending on the progress and depending on the other
'dominoes' falling - the power and influence of the centralized
power will be diminished, the state will become smaller and smaller.

I know I am naive. I am not that smart. And all you other comrades
know tons and tons...

[Kropotesta]

basically anarchists believe in free soviets and communists believe in soviets with a centralised state with power. As anarchists we object to the State is it will produce a new ruling elite.

[Kropotesta]

Yes I belive in centralized power during the transition period.
Then education of the people begins - to make them realize that
greed and envy can not be cornerstones of a society.

And also that they - in the end - really don't need a state. No gods
and no masters.

Slowly, depending on the progress and depending on the other
'dominoes' falling - the power and influence of the centralized
power will be diminished, the state will become smaller and smaller.

Yeah, you're a Marxist, but there's hope for you yet!

[dirtycommiebastard]

As anarchists we object to the State is it will produce a new ruling elite.

A new ruling elite?

Well, let us look at the ruling elite now. Why do THEY have power over the working class.

Some very simple reasons.
-They own and control the means of production
-They are and control armed bodies of people, i.e. the army, the police force, etc.

Under socialism, the workers will control the means of production, and a standing army will not exist which can be used against the workers, as the the only armed body will be the workers themselves who volunteer to defend their own interests.

So you see, the State really has no power over the workers, as the State IS the workers. Workers who are recallable at any time from their positions.

Also, Grunt, may I suggest some immediate reading to better understand Marxism?

-Communist Manifesto
-Wage Labour and Capital
-Socialism: Utopian and Scientific

Also; If you have any more questions, feel free to PM me.

Yeah, you're a Marxist, but there's hope for you yet!

Comrade, I hope that hope exists for you!

[Kropotesta]

A new ruling elite?

Well, let us look at the ruling elite now. Why do THEY have power over the working class.

So why replace it with a new one as you did in Russia, China and so on.
I didn't say we don't have one now.....

Some very simple reasons.
-They own and control the means of production
-They are and control armed bodies of people, i.e. the army, the police force, etc.

Are you trying to point out the obvious?

Under socialism, the workers will control the means of production, and a standing army will not exist which can be used against the workers, as the the only armed body will be the workers themselves who volunteer to defend their own interests.

Anarchists also say this.

So you see, the State really has no power over the workers, as the State IS the workers. Workers who are recallable at any time from their positions.

No, the vanguard becomes the state, well atleast in practice. Also they are not "recallable", heard of the Gulags?

Comrade, I hope that hope exists for you!

Straight back at you.

[dirtycommiebastard]

Are you trying to point out the obvious?

No, explaining very basically for the new comrade.

Anarchists also say this.

Alright.

No, the vanguard becomes the state, well atleast in practice. Also they are not "recallable", heard of the Gulags?

What is your point?

As if every Marxist defends Stalinist Russia.

And officials should be recallable. No one here argues otherwise. I think you are trying to take advantage of the fact that I am a new member who most likely doesn't know much.

[Kropotesta]

What is your point?

As if every Marxist defends Stalinist Russia.

The point is that Bakunin predicted this would happen if a Dictatorship of the Proletariat was set up both the Russian revolution even started.

[dirtycommiebastard]

The point is that Bakunin predicted this would happen if a Dictatorship of the Proletariat was set up both the Russian revolution even started.

There never was real Dictatorship of the Proletariat in Russia. Though the 'anti-revisionists' may claim otherwise.

[Kropotesta]

There never was real Dictatorship of the Proletariat in Russia. Though the 'anti-revisionists' may claim otherwise.

So what makes you think that next time would working differently?

[dirtycommiebastard]

So what makes you think that next time would working differently?

Because, a few failures does not indicate the complete failure of the idea.

It is the power of history, not only in the sense that we can learn from the mistakes of the past, but the proletariat will take power if the the vanguard is built on the proper ideological basis. To do this, we MUST learn from the past.

[Kropotesta]

Because, a few failures does not indicate the complete failure of the idea.

It is the power of history, not only in the sense that we can learn from the mistakes of the past, but the proletariat will take power if the the vanguard is built on the proper ideological basis. To do this, we MUST learn from the past.

How about promoting the working class to revolutionise itself rather than having some small elitist vanguard party that will exploit and lead on the working class. Just like how the SWP appartently considers themselves a vanguard

[dirtycommiebastard]

How about promoting the working class to revolutionise itself rather than having some small elitist vanguard party that will exploit and lead on the working class. Just like how the SWP appartently considers themselves a vanguard

Yes, every cadre building organization must be prepared to accept being the vanguard if the opportunity arises. To think otherwise is childish. I think it was Engels who said that all sects are justified until ones becomes the vanguard, then they become reactionary. Not that I necessarily support the SWP.

It is important that we prepare for such an occasion.

And the vanguard does not exist to 'exploit' the working class, but to lead it to revolution. This can only be accomplished by working within the working class and pushing revolutionary ideas.

[Omi]

I know I am naive. I am not that smart. And all you other comrades
know tons and tons...

Well ofcourse this is not true. The thing is, people only respond to posts they think they can respond to with new and usefull arguements. If we would post everything we didn't know, the forum would get kinda crowdy, if you catch my drift.

Furthermore, from the looks of it you are a marxist, describing the basics of marxism.

I personally think a centralised party tasked with ''preparing'' the proletariat for a new form of society evokes brainwashing and disturbing authoritairian ruling. Mental exploitation is just as exploitative as material exploitation, which some communists fail to recognise.

I would recommend The Conquest of Bread, a great book by Peter Kropotkin, which is more understandable then Das Kapital. I learned a lot from it, and my doubts about anarchist theory where completely vanished when I finished it. The Communist Manifest is also very good, as it helped me understand how capitalism works and how it stands in history better!

I think I am in a pretty similar situation as you, particulairly the total astonishment I felt when seeïng al this knowledge posessed by people in the revolutionary movement. But I think this is just a good thing, people can learn a lot from it!

[mikelepore]

OK ! I find especially chapter 1 very very theoretical, dry and arid. Some say: "Skip it and read it later." What do you think of that ?

For a first pass through, you can make it less dry by scanning the text vertically and noting that some paragraphs are about defining basic concepts and addressing misconceptions. For example the paragraph that begins: ""A thing can be a use-value, without having value...." The paragraph that begins: "The equality of all sorts of human labour is expressed objectively by their products all being equally values; the measure of the expenditure of labour-power by the duration...." The paragraph that begins: "Some people might think that if the value of a commodity is determined by the quantity of labour spent on it, the more idle and unskillful the labourer, the more valuable would his commodity be, because more time would be required in its production...." He's defining his vocabulary step by step, and he's answering several objections in advance. The wise-guys over in the Opposing Ideologies forum who think they discovered some great "flaw" in Marx, and it *always* turns out that they are incorrectly praphrasing what Marx really said -- guess where they would have found most of their answers, if they had bothered to look? In chapter 1.

[Grunt]

basically anarchists believe in free soviets and communists believe in soviets with a centralised state with power. As anarchists we object to the State is it will produce a new ruling elite.

Yeah - free sovjets - in the end !! But I still believe that (once the
revolution is accomplished and the dominoes are collapsing) that
a centralized state is necessary for the transition.

Thats why I naively think that socialism/marxism etc. is a means to an
end.

[Grunt]

Yeah, you're a Marxist, but there's hope for you yet!

I am ?? I didn't know !

Although I am young, a newbie and dunno nothing - I don't think
(from the little I know) that I am a classic, hardcore marxist.

But what do I know....

[Grunt]

....
Also, Grunt, may I suggest some immediate reading to better understand Marxism?

-Communist Manifesto
-Wage Labour and Capital
-Socialism: Utopian and Scientific

Also; If you have any more questions, feel free to PM me.


Comrade, I hope that hope exists for you!

Thanks for trying to teach me ! I appreciate !
I read the manifesto - but will re-read it again.

And I promise to check out the other two !

Yes: Hope exists for me !

[Grunt]

No, explaining very basically for the new comrade.

...and the new comrade (moi) thanks you for that !

As if every Marxist defends Stalinist Russia.

Exactly. I know guys here from the SP (Marxist/Trotzkyist)
who acknowledge the truth about Stalin. He betrayed the
revolution.

[Grunt]

The point is that Bakunin predicted this would happen if a Dictatorship of the Proletariat was set up both the Russian revolution even started.

That is true ! Even I know that !

[Grunt]

There never was real Dictatorship of the Proletariat in Russia.

Not that it matters - but from what I know - I agree !
Stalin betrayed the revolution and IMHO what came after
Lenins death didn't have very much to do with Socialism/Communism.

But I may be wrong. I don't know much. I am trying to learn.