Can has loaded question?Originally Posted by Vanguard
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With the overthrow of capitalism, the working class will seek to massively step-up technological advancement and its application in the industrial and agricultural production process, as a means to increase the productivity of labour - so that we can produce more with less labour-time.
But you're for getting rid of all industry, aren't you?
Can has loaded question?Originally Posted by Vanguard
The Luddites didn't criticise Technology or blame technology for anything. They wanted set prices for set work and opposed the idea of a "free market" alot has been written about the luddites. But not alot was written by the luddites. In their own words they said they would fight until "full fashioned work at the old fashioned price Is established by Custom and Law"
And some other extracts from "General Ludds Triumph"
"The guilty may fear, but no vengeance he aims
At the honest man's life or Estate
His wrath is entirely confined to wide frames
And to those that old prices abate "
They actually wanted set-prices for set labour. And used machine smashing as a direct-protest.
"Then the Trade when this arduous contest is o'er
Shall raise in full splendour its head
And colting and cutting and squaring no more
Shall deprive honest workmen of bread."
"How you cling to your purity, young man! How afraid you are to soil your hands! All right, stay pure! What good will it do? Why did you join us? Purity is an idea for a yogi or a monk. You intellectuals and Bourgeois anarchists use it as a pretext for doing nothing. To do nothing, to remain motionless, arms at your sides, wearing kids gloves. Well, I have dirty hands. Right up to the elbows. I've plunged them in the filth and blood. But what do you hope? Do you think you'll govern innocently?"-Jean-Paul Sartre
Getting rid of the "boss class" is like trying to get rid of homosexuals. Some people are just BORN to take over when there's a vacuum (like anarchy.)
Keeping the boss class is like murdering babies.
Hey look, I can make shocking comparisons to buttress my non-existing point to.
"How you cling to your purity, young man! How afraid you are to soil your hands! All right, stay pure! What good will it do? Why did you join us? Purity is an idea for a yogi or a monk. You intellectuals and Bourgeois anarchists use it as a pretext for doing nothing. To do nothing, to remain motionless, arms at your sides, wearing kids gloves. Well, I have dirty hands. Right up to the elbows. I've plunged them in the filth and blood. But what do you hope? Do you think you'll govern innocently?"-Jean-Paul Sartre
Fair enough, but some people are just BORN to rise to the top. At least I think so. And they come to the fore with anarchism--or near anarchism. Look at Hitler after the Weimer Republic or Nepoleon after the (Paris Commune!) French Republic. Look at Stalin after Lenin. They just arise. Same as in business--do you think all these guys that can rise to the heights of corporate power will just go away?
The day after the "revolution" believe me, I (and those like me) will declare my undying faith to the cause and then will start aquiring a power base. We were born to rule. I don't really care what the political or economic structure is, we'll work within it's confines, just fine--but we will rule.
That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Well pointed out. When the Luddites (the 19th century radicals) attacked industrial technology, it wasn't technological progress itself that they were opposed to - they were fighting against the effects of emerging industrial capitalism on their livelihoods. Compare this to today's 'primitivists' and eco-worriers, some of whom openly condemn technology for raising living standards and giving way to 'over-consumption', and we see that their petty sentiments are a millions miles away from the aspirations of the Luddites.
Last edited by Vanguard1917; 28th March 2008 at 23:33.
Actually, it's more complicated than what either you or the petit-bourgeois TomK have said. Power has shifted away from boards towards "senior management" ("officers"). This "senior management" isn't part of a "labour aristocracy" as you and Lenin put it, but rather part of the ever-changing "functional capitalist" subclass.
[Please read my "article submission" on class relations. Thanks.]
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
There is nothing "petit" about me. I have three houses and a Bentley.
What the hell does that mean?
Last edited by Bud Struggle; 29th March 2008 at 23:20.
Personal possessions (as opposed to the legalized theft known as capital property) doth not determine one's class. That is merely reductionist thinking.There is nothing "petit" about me. I have three houses and a Bentley.
What company do you own: a "small-to-medium business," or some large national enterprise?
You'll have to read and understand Das Kapital, Volume III (most "cappies" can't stomach going past the popularized Volume I) to understand.
Last edited by Die Neue Zeit; 29th March 2008 at 23:29.
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
Ain't gunna happen, buddy.You'll have to read and understand Das Kapital, Volume III (most "cappies" can't stomach going past the popularized Volume I) to understand.
Get a job.
^^^ I already have a good one (being way past the teenage years), thank you.
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
[quote=Jacob Richter;1110242]
Even Lenin never read that far.You'll have to read and understand Das Kapital, Volume III (most "cappies" can't stomach going past the popularized Volume I) to understand.
That's why the "magic" never happened.
A good job? Bowing to the Capitalist, I see.
Last edited by Bud Struggle; 29th March 2008 at 23:58.
Could we all get along.Ain't gunna happen, buddy.
Get a job.
Please?
I love tomk and I love jacob. Two nice people. At least nice to me and treat me very well.
oh technology......that wouldnt put people out of work, at least i dont think so. For example, wouldnt machines still need people to operate them?
Last edited by careyprice31; 29th March 2008 at 23:59.
Yes. Sorry.Could we all get along.
Please?
I love tomk and I love jacob. Two nice people. At least nice to me and treat me very well.
He called me a petit-bourgeois.
Petit!
well petit bourgeois are like ones who own smaller businesses not huge corporations and big trans national corporations.
Thats all he meant. Like the guy who lives down the road from us. He owns a small grocery store. He's a petit bourgeois.
Last edited by careyprice31; 30th March 2008 at 00:06.
I'm not FREAKIN' petit!
I own a shitload of proletarians!
^^^ Sorry, but "owning" lots of proletarians still doesn't determine your still-petit-bourgeois class.
Last edited by Die Neue Zeit; 30th March 2008 at 00:18.
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
im not saying you are, just explaining what jacob meant. I get the idea that your factory of course is larger than a neighborhood store. What type of factory is it? how many proletarians?
^^^ It doesn't matter. Because of the development of capitalism, there are other factors, such as market share and market size. He could be the boss of 1,000 proles all hand-making products that could be manufactured, and still be considered petit-bourgeois (please swallow your false pride, TomK).
[My still-petit-bourgeois boss owns a f****** personal aircraft (for his own piloting) compared to your car.]
Last edited by Die Neue Zeit; 30th March 2008 at 17:39.
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
