Thread: Is race REALLY just a social construct?

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  1. #61
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    "White" is not a race. Skin color only is synonymous with race among idiots... Perhaps whatever nothern-european people he is talking about may constitute a race, but I would like to see where he got that information.
    So what does define a race?

    Pray tell...
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    It's a lovely idea Vanguard1917, but once more you have failed to produce any evidence that humans are special and unique. The difference is one of degree, not of type.
    Human beings have sapience! We are able to 'act with judgement'.
    That makes us special.
    So what does define a race?

    Pray tell...
    As far as I am aware, race is defined by certain sets of physical characteristics.
    I don't see how it can be defined any other way because we have little evidence that there are differences mentally (especially little evidence around the time the term was 'scientifically' used).
    And in that way race can only be a social construct. 'We' choose where to divide these physical characteristics in terms of 'race', rather than relying on any sort of scientific evidence. The term race is not used synonymously in terms of our fellow human beings to those of other species of animals.
    What's more, it's use serves no practical purpose. Human beings are diverse to the extent that these sort of divisions, to classify certain human beings as certain things is useless, at best, and as we can see, restrictive and personally harmful, at worst.
    Last edited by Module; 15th May 2008 at 22:17.
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    the spurious practice of genetic 'ancestor tracing' has revealed such unexpected findings as a totally african american looking male discovers his genes are 80% Irish...one time Irish were assumed to have protruding foreheads, receding chins, 'ape' cartoons of Irish abounded in english press. Now being Irish in america is considered a 'recreational' identity -you might remember it when naming your kids and choosing a vacation destination forget it at all other times. how many times must anti-racists make the point that there is WAY more within 'group' variation than there is between 'group' variation...I'm sick of the athlete argument for racism....africans are also prone to sickle cell anaemia but SO WHAT??what's your point. the most socially constructed fact about the dubious concept of race is that it matters...it only matters to racists. when i'm living in California i'm taken to be part african because of my colouring when tanned and my features and my black hair and brown eyes, it must matter to those californians who ask me, but i don't understand why it matters to them.
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    well the ability to collectively and consciously self-organise, i.e. to form a society, is most definitely a qualitative difference from animals. As is the ability to produce a surplus, etc.

    of course it comes from an evolutionary continuum. all qualitative differences have their roots in quantitative developments, as Engels showed.
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    I came across this post by TragicClown, which I thought was brilliant in explaining how race is a social construct.

    Although it concerns gender and sex, it compares it to skin colour and other hereditary indicators of geographic ancestry, and race.

    It hits two birds with one stone, in my opinion:

    I bring this up because it seems like there’s a lot of confusion as to what the difference between gender and sex is, how many there are of each, and what it means to be outside a so-called “gender binary.”

    Gender and sex are not archetypal models that people “fit” or fail to fit into, rather they’re types of categorical labels that people apply; genders are social categories, sexes are biological or physical categories.

    In this regard, the relation between sex and gender is parallel to the relation between skin colour and other hereditary indicators of geographic ancestry, and race. Skin colour is a physical, biological trait, race is a social construct that people recognize in people based on their physical appearance. Likewise, sex is a physical, biological trait, and gender is the social

    Its often repeated that race isn’t biological, and this is sometimes interpreted to mean that race isn’t real. But equating discreet biological categories with something being real or not has no basis in science or sociology or leftist political theory. Race is very real, on a social level, and its also essentially fixed within any given society, because the social recognition of race in individuals is determined by their physical appearance, specifically the social interpretation of traits such as skin colour which relate to geographic ancestry. There is absolutely no biological basis for, .

    Nor could there be; the reaction that’s sometimes taken, that there are some species with real races or subspecies but that humans just don’t happen to be one of them, completely misses the point and makes a category error; the reality of social categories is not found in biology its found in social interaction, they exist because of how people behave collectively not because of how people are biologically.

    Someone once argued passionately here that there is a “Mediterranean race”, an argument made on the basis of appearance and self-identification, and this race simply wasn’t recognized because the “white race” wrote a version of history where it didn’t exist. In making this argument, she completely misunderstood the concept of race; races aren’t organic things that exist outside of human conception, where failing to fit racial stereotypes evidences the existence another race, rather they are categories created by social recognition. In other words, if the dominate version of history and social recognition, regards people living in the Mediterranean as being ‘white’ rather than non-white as it regards people living in sub-Saharan Africa, that simply means that Mediterranean’s are white because race exists and only exists as a socially agreed upon category.

    The same is true of sex and gender.

    The existence of intersexed infants who have physically ambiguous sexual characteristics is not evidence of a ‘third gender’ or many different genders; to suggest as much is to mistakenly believe that gender is a physical or biological or mental category rather than a social one. Being physically unusual doesn’t need to be met with abnormal treatment or necessitate any sort of social abnormality; contemporary western society is perfectly capable of recognizing people with unusual sexual characteristics as being one or the other gender and treating them normally.

    The ambiguity that might exist in infants is in part attributable to the fact that gender has very little social consequence in interactions with infants and only determines pronoun choice, and because infants have no secondary sexual characteristics which is the way people determine what gender someone is when they’re older. Different types of birth defects that affect primary sexual characteristics lead to different presentation of secondary sexual characteristics and people in normal social interaction have no trouble determining which gender they belong to at that point. For instance, people with two x chromosomes and one y chromosome might not be ‘male’ or ‘female’ on a cellular biological level, but to anyone looking at them and interacting with them on a social level rather than a medical one, they appeal male, so their gender is the same as any other boy or man even though their primary sexual traits are different. It isn’t a case of “not fitting into a gender binary”, they fit into a gender binary perfectly well they just don’t fit into the two common biological sexes.

    Getting back to race and skin colour; in addition to the essentially fixed racial categories that society imposes on people, some (but not all) people will additionally posit stereotypical views of people belonging to those categories. These stereotypes are however, just that, and they do not constitute requirements for recognition in a racial category or ‘fitting in.’

    For instance, if you accept the premise that certain people believe that, in general, white people can’t dance, and you accept the premise that, say Justin Timberlake, can dance, does it follow that Justin Timberlake is in fact not-white? Does this mean that Justin Timberlake somehow transcends race and doesn’t fit into the racial white/non-white binary? Does it give Justin Timberlake reason to identify himself as non-white, or can Justin Timberlake legitimately say he doesn’t feel white? No of course not, because whether or not someone is white is something that’s agreed upon based on their appearance and presumed ancestry, not whether or not they can dance; the fact that some people who hold this particular stereotypical view assume that if someone is white than they can’t dance or probably can’t dance is irrelevant.

    When you see people who don’t fit the stereotype of a race, that doesn’t mean that they don’t ‘fit in’ that race; rather it means that the stereotype is wrong or inadequate to describe the range of human diversity.

    Likewise, the same is true about sex and gender.

    Someone who prefers to dress a particular way, or acts a particular way, or thinks they feel a particular way, which are not in line with the stereotypical expectations for their gender, isn’t an example of someone who doesn’t “fit into the gender binary” but simply someone who doesn’t fit a particular gender stereotype.

    So why is it that, after so many years of feminism demonstrating that the stereotypes about men and women are wrong, of the feminist movement reducing the recognized criteria for gender to sex rather than any set of stereotypical behavior or attitudes, we all of a sudden have people who seem to think that failing to adhere to gender stereotypes means failing to be part of that gender. It seems like a step back in time where there was prescribed behavior for ‘real men’ and ‘real women’.

    When people confuse gender with gender sterotypes it actually has a very reactionary affect of presuming a stereotypical role for people on the basis of gender. If for instance, a black kid said “I don’t feel black, I don’t identify with being black, I don’t like rap music, hip hop, reggae, I think OJ was guilty, I straighten and dye my hair and speak with a waspy accent, therefore I feel I’m white and identify as being white”, I don’t think leftists would come to the conclusion that this was in fact a white person trapped in a black persons body, or alternatively, a member of a different previously unidentified race that we need to rush to socially recognize. I think, we’d just think that he or she had bought into stereotypes about black people and white people and mistakenly thought that being a black person meant wanting to adhere to those stereotypes rather than simply being recognized as such in society whether or not one fit the stereotypes.

    Similarly, I don’t think that just because some kid is embarrassed that girls or boys do stupidly stereotypical things means that we need to introduce a set of new ‘gender neutral’ pronouns for them, thereby reinforcing the stereotype as the only normal form of being a girl or a boy. Instead stereotypes should be exposed as just that, stereotypes rather than essentially defining qualities.
  6. #66
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    "… there is less mtDNA difference between dogs, wolves, and coyotes than there is between the various ethnic groups of human beings, which are recognized as a single species."

    Coppinger, R. and R. Schneider (1995). Evolution of working dogs. In J. Serpell (ed.), The Domestic Dog: Its Evolution, Behaviour and Interactions with People. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
    An urgent comment before this thing strays too far. I understand you people are not good with abervations you are not familiar with but mtDNA is a completely different thing than core celular DNA.

    mtDNA is Mitochondrial DNA, which is DNA of (what is thought to be by some) a remnant of a bacterial symbiont living inside our cells. The noteworthy part being that it is only transfered mother to offspring and is completely separate from the core celular DNA. While cellular core DNA can define various characteristics of a living organism, the Mitochondira's and thus mtDNA's only task is converting energy and it has no mechanism of influencing what we look like or how we function. Mitochondiral defects would typically result in death before the first cell division took place.

    ALSO, please cut the crap regarding red melanin and things like that -- there is no such thing as red melanin. Melanin is a single pigment of a specific color, which produces most of the shades skin colors when found in different concentrations. Melanin itself is not inheritable -- the genes for it's production are. This is noteworthy because there amount is not directly regulated, there are several mechanisms by which it functions and many genes regulate which mechanisms take effect. I may mention two that I am aware of: 1. how quickly skin gets tanned under sunlight, 2. how much pigment is present in the skin without any external influence.

    ALSO, careful when speaking of the mechanisms of evolution. Evolution leaves a lot to chance -- there are no causes and effects, there are just coincidences. People in Africa are not black Because Africa contains deserts and jungles and the sun is stronger there (don't be so arrogant please). The point that they are black is pure coincidence, which however has a thing or two to do with better survival odds. Take India for example, which is equally close to the equator, the genetic "solution" is completely different there, being adaptive, enjoying the same odds though.

    -------------------------
    My personal oppinion: Race as we know it is a perfect artifact of society. Given the fact that 99,9999% of the people are just as clueless of the function of DNA as you people, it is entirely unlikely that genetics itself could be the basis for any sort of discrimination present in society today.

    I think however that there are many differences in genetics and it is an interesting subject. Perhaps some day, when genetic engineering is sufficiently advanced it will become possible to donate one's genes to help patch up deficiencys.

    Genetics is not what most people make it, genes directly only affect metabolism... affects what kind of armouring is on the surface of my cells and how quick my cells are to process which kind of chemical substance. These can then indirectly affect appearance and performance: There is no fast running gene, even though having long legs helps.

    As far as comparing / scaling genetic differences in between dogs vs between races is concerned: May I suggest grain instead. Farming grain has 20 times more genes than it's wild counterpart. In other words one thing should strike you as obvious: Genetic science isn't by far advanced enough at this point to tell you anything smart about how gene pools compare. Comparing races and chimps and ending up at a conclusion that it's all almost the same anyway, is like comparing a chair, a table and a tree and coming to a conclusion that they are all made of wood anyway.

    To sum it up: Yes, my genes are better than yours, but it's not because of my race and it doesn't make any difference anyway, since determining what my actual advantage over you is will take scientists another 50 years. Then maybe I could tell you just how stupid all of this is.
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    Makes it easier if they're animals right?
    That we ARE.
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    glad to see there is finally a two-dimensional conversation on debate here, communists have often shyed away from ethnic autonomy.
    Genetic differences are real, and there are specific alleles which give certain traits. While there may be gradient effects between regions, there are general characteristics unique to regions associated with alleles that should not be lost.

    For example, at the rate of third world immigration into the first world, it is unlikely that the genetics of the European region will continue in the future. Traits unique to those regions in the superficial sense, such as fair skin, fair hair, will disappear rapidly. This is because these alleles are recessive even though they are selective.

    just before passing might I had that one continual and constant criticism of the current left is their refusal to understand vast sections of the working class would prefer to not have their ethnicity denied and/or annihilated in their home nations--this is called 'ethnocide', and it was tabled as a war crime in the UN, however, it has not been passed, immigration is just too profitable
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    glad to see there is finally a two-dimensional conversation on debate here, communists have often shyed away from ethnic autonomy.
    Genetic differences are real, and there are specific alleles which give certain traits. While there may be gradient effects between regions, there are general characteristics unique to regions associated with alleles that should not be lost.

    For example, at the rate of third world immigration into the first world, it is unlikely that the genetics of the European region will continue in the future. Traits unique to those regions in the superficial sense, such as fair skin, fair hair, will disappear rapidly. This is because these alleles are recessive even though they are selective.

    just before passing might I had that one continual and constant criticism of the current left is their refusal to understand vast sections of the working class would prefer to not have their ethnicity denied and/or annihilated in their home nations--this is called 'ethnocide', and it was tabled as a war crime in the UN, however, it has not been passed, immigration is just too profitable
    I'm much more interested in quality of life for humanity and the state of the planet generally than whether or not there are going to be many blond people around in a thousand years or so. I'm also working class. Phrases like 'ethnic autonomy' easily carry sinister intent - if it means defending choices and opportunities to engage in culture and tradition then this is a good thing, if we're talking about putting breeding fences around populations then it's racism by another name.
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    If someone can find concrete evidence that race does exist I would like to see it.

    1. 85% of human genetic variation can be found within a single population.
    2. 94% of human genetic variation can be found within a single continent.

    That means when a group of white people were hanging a black man in the olden days, some of those white men were genetically closer to the black man then some of the other white men.

    3. See whiteness in US history

    If we look at the history of whiteness in the United States we can clearly see that it is solely a social construct. Before, white just meant a person of anglo-saxon decent. Then it expanded to Germans, then Irish, Polish, Italian, etc. Did the Irish genetically switch from green to white skin? Are many Middle Easterners, Hispanics, and Northern Africans suddenly genetically changing because they are starting to be accepted as white (or can at least move in and out undetected in white society)?

    4. There is no clear cut difference between "races".

    If you go to Southern Italy and Northern Africa, you will find very little if no differences between those populations. In fact, 25% of many southern Italians genetic makeup is African decent. We are only basing race on artificial boundaries. If Europe extended to Morocco or was shortened to disclude Italy and Spain, the definition of white and European would be changed even if the genetic makeup of those populations stayed the same.


    We can look at the extremities of race and say that an Anglo-Saxon and Somali are as different as a 6 and 36 year old. But once we start looking between the lines we start to notice that the difference between a 17 and 18 year old isn't that great even though we consider one an adult and one not. Then the difference between a 17 year 11 month old and an 18 year 0 month old is even smaller and we still have an artificial barrier. We can even go to the exact second when a person goes from being 17 to 18 and there is a social barrier.

    Like age, race works in the same way. We can point out the differences between an Anglo-Saxon and Somali and we can point out the difference between an Ethiopian and a Somali but you will never find a clear cut dividing line between the two.
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    JUST a social construct? as in private property is JUST a social construct?
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  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by davidasearles
    JUST a social construct? as in private property is JUST a social construct?
    I don't understand what you're saying here?
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    Race as typically defined, or as first defined by Linneaus was and still is based on skin tone and geographic location. You would basically have to be able to prove that there are different groups of people that each are homogeneous in order to be able to classify differeent races, however this as others have stated, is impossible since genetically all humans are very similar.
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    JUST a social construct? as in private property is JUST a social construct?
    I can't speak for anyone else but I think the point is that race is 'just' a social construct in relation to the false idea that it is a scientifically justifiable discovery of biology. That race is a social construct doesn't make it any less potent a force. The early modern period in Europe witnessed a rash of witchcraft hysteria and real people, mostly old peasant women, were humiliated, tortured and murdered for 'being witches', even though today we're pretty confident that they weren't really witches at all. Race is similar, it is a real social construct and has some real effects, notwithstanding that those people identified as members of such races are not so in the scientific sense.
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    Of course we are different, and I think it's very important to embrace that.

    But, the differences are small, and usually, less obvious than you might first expect. And it's even more important to embrace that.


    Hating people of other colors, is just as non-sensical as hating on people with different hair colors.
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    I am far from a leftist, but I do consider myself on the whole socially liberal. However, one thing I cannot get past is the belief that race is purely a social construct.

    It is no coincedence that the fastest 100m sprinter has never been a white male. It is no coincedence that it's only some white, northern europeans which carry the immunity to aids gene.

    While it should never affect how we are treated in the eyes of the law, racial differences are apparent. Some have advantages over others in certain areas, simple as that.
    Yes it is just a social construct. Scientifically speaking there is no such thing as race nor has it been a valid or useful concept for a long time now.
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    I don't understand what you're saying here?
    Not many people ever do.
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    Race must be a social construct, as racial categories and expectations change over time.

    For example, in the 19th Century United States, Irish people were treated just like black people were treated in the 20th Century.
    Hispanics used to be simply a homogenous group, but now demographic surveys wish to categorize between "white Hispanic" and "Black hispanic," essentially making "Hispanic" a geographic category rather than a racial category.
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    A poodle and a wolf can reproduce. Does the fact that poodle-wolf hybrids exist mean that the differences between a poodle and a wolf are just socially constructed?

    Since a poodle and a wolf are members of the same species, we could say that breeds are just a social construct. We could pretend that poodles and wolves do not have major physical differences and completley different instincts.

    That decision wouldn't turn out well for the wolves, the poodles, or us.

    I don't think that one breed is superior to another, but that doesn't mean I would charge poodles with taking down elk, or leave my kid alone with a wolf.
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    One counter-question:

    If race indeed was biological, what would it matter? Would it make discrimination somewhat more acceptable or what?

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