Religion in an anarchist society

[Freedom Through Anarchy]

Ive been thinking over the past week or so and i just couldn't figure out one problem with my vision of a "Perfect" society.
Religion.
Its pretty obvious that people won't just completely give up their religion in that society.
My perfect picture for an anarchist society is completely devoid of any religion whatsoever as they only prove to create problems and the followers often blindly follow a hierachy of officials in the church (Priest, bishop etc). No money system either where everyone puts there food into a local pot where everyone can take just what the need to survive. No police force as the people would be held responsible for policing themselves in their own individual community. This all depends on the ideal that "Birds of a kind flock together". Each community would be made up of people with alike thinking. (As you wouldn't want to live in a community with everyone else disagreeing with you) Of course theres going to be communities that will be revolved around drugs and other factors but only the people who "want" to be in that community will go to it. Of course theres the problem of the people who can't work for themselves and need another person assistance (IE Mentally ill people) that would be taken care of by the people that have compassion for them. Still after thinking and agreeing with my whole ideal ive based it on everyone being an atheist. Religion would inviviitably cause problems. But would they just create a community of like people that worship the same faith?
So my question basiclly is how would Religion fit into an Anarchist society?

[blackstone]

How would it cause problems? You never made a point.

[Freedom Through Anarchy]

Disagreements in the inner community making the whole system fall apart.


I should have changed the question i was actually asking.
"Hows does religion fit into an anarchist society and what problems and benefits can it cause"

[Dros]

I don't think that, in a Communist society, religion will continue to exist as the material basis for religion's existance (ie scarcity, alienation, exploitation) would be gone.

[apathy maybe]

drosera99's comment is the correct Marxist answer, and funnily enough is correct enough for non-Marxists too (in most cases).

The question you should ask is, what causes religion? Why are people religious? Will these things continue to exist into a society of rationalism, surplus and freedom?

My suggestion is that there might still be some small amount of religion, but it won't be an obvious part of society (except in those communities built around it). People might still 'go to church on Sunday', but it won't be a big public church, because it is unlikely that such things exist. More likely they will have small gatherings. There might still be 'nature worshippers' as well.

But the thing is, that it won't affect other people. If someone tries to force their religion on another person it will probably be treated abhorrently (who are you to get off telling me how to think?).

Of course, this is all speculation, and you should not fall into the trap of blueprinting utopia. The shape of society to come will not be decided by a single person, but by society as a whole.

[F9]

i think just it doesnt fit!religion is the most powerfull card for capitalists who want to start wars and make their people to obay them!

[Black Dagger]

But would they just create a community of like people that worship the same faith?

If they want - that is their choice.

Disagreements in the inner community making the whole system fall apart.

If religion did not inhibit the social revolution and the creation of anarchy why would it suddenly start to cause problems at a later date? Surely most (any?) problems would have arisen at a much earlier date.

At any rate, i think it's fairly improbable that organised religion or in the least, religion as it currently exists, will continue to hold the same relevance as it does now by the time anarchy has been established. For an anarchist society to have been created in the first place implies a broad rejection of authority, hierarchy and domination - and thus of the most socially harmful aspects stemming from religious belief.

I think it's important to remember that the future will be very different to the present - so much so that it's basically impossible to say with any credibility what this will mean in terms of society - religious views, forms of spirituality (if any) etc. Certainly as time goes by (and at an ever increasing rate) science is closing down the space between human knowledge and 'god' - basically our own ignorance - and with each step we take the legitimacy of supernatural explanation is called into question.

Basically, at this point in time it looks like religion as a dominant force in human society has an expiration date and it's drawing closer as each decade, each century goes by (save some kind of future 'dark ages'-style reversion to global theocracy) - and certainly an anarchist revolution would signal something of a nail in the coffin for religion of this nature.

[Colonello Buendia]

d

My suggestion is that there might still be some small amount of religion, but it won't be an obvious part of society (except in those communities built around it). People might still 'go to church on Sunday', but it won't be a big public church, because it is unlikely that such things exist. More likely they will have small gatherings. There might still be 'nature worshippers' as well.

But the thing is, that it won't affect other people. If someone tries to force their religion on another person it will probably be treated abhorrently (who are you to get off telling me how to think?).

I think what people believe is their business, so if a group of Christians or Buddhists set up their own communes that'd be cool with me. I'd also say that if they stayed within secular communes and collectives they can practice their faith etc so long as they don't get on at others or preach.

[INDK]

I don't think that, in a Communist society, religion will continue to exist as the material basis for religion's existance (ie scarcity, alienation, exploitation) would be gone.

I generally agree and have argued this since the beginning of my stay at this board, but I see one problem -

Religion doesn't really find it's origins in alienation and exploitation - it seems to have risen much before civilization itself, from people wondering why- what happens when they die, why everything is around them, where they came from, etc.

[AGITprop]

I generally agree and have argued this since the beginning of my stay at this board, but I see one problem -

Religion doesn't really find it's origins in alienation and exploitation - it seems to have risen much before civilization itself, from people wondering why- what happens when they die, why everything is around them, where they came from, etc.

Absolutely, religion was a means to explain phenomena which could not otherwise be explained. In the beginning we attributed naturally occuring events such as rain to spirits who controlled nature. Over time, with the development of science we attribute less and less to the absurd mystical forces. Also, religion is prevalent in society where material conditions demand it. People who are unhappy find a sense of peace in the idea that the afterlife will be paradise. I strongly suggest you read Reason in Revolt by Ted Grant and Alan Woods. It analysis of dialectical materialism will help you understand these concepts. Under risk of being attacked by Rosa i suggest you visit www.marxist.com where reason in revolt is available to read for free.

[Freedom Through Anarchy]

Thanks ill read it

[AGITprop]

Thanks ill read it

Well pace yourself. Its over 500 pages.

[Dros]

Religion doesn't really find it's origins in alienation and exploitation - it seems to have risen much before civilization itself, from people wondering why- what happens when they die, why everything is around them, where they came from, etc.

I was referring to orginized religion as it manifests itself today.

We have science to deal with those problems now.

[Freedom Through Anarchy]

Well pace yourself. Its over 500 pages.

Oh of course of course id rather go to the library and order it rather then read it on the internet just for reasons of comfort and such but i certainly will ill have to pick up a book or two on marxism because im not actually sure what the believe in depth.

[jake williams]

I don't think that, in a Communist society, religion will continue to exist as the material basis for religion's existance (ie scarcity, alienation, exploitation) would be gone.

This whole idea is, at least in part, ridiculous. A post-capitalist society would certainly be so altered that every institution, including religion, would change a whole lot. In part it would be abandoned. But to suggest that anything plausibly describable as "religion" would sort of vapourize is just fantasy. Even Christianity would take several generations at least to fade away much, and that's a tiny part of what I think should be labeled "religion", though it may be worth considering that the word is to broad to bother using anymore.

[Dros]

This whole idea is, at least in part, ridiculous. A post-capitalist society would certainly be so altered that every institution, including religion, would change a whole lot. In part it would be abandoned. But to suggest that anything plausibly describable as "religion" would sort of vapourize is just fantasy. Even Christianity would take several generations at least to fade away much, and that's a tiny part of what I think should be labeled "religion", though it may be worth considering that the word is to broad to bother using anymore.

Note the use of the word Communism. If the revolution happened tomorrow all across the planet, it would be several generations before we actually were able to implement a communist mode of production.

Now ask yourself this: What is the material basis for religion?

If you have an understanding of communist theory your answer will go something like this: the continued exploitation of the working classes, poverty, alienation, scarcity, and exploitation.

Then ask yourself this: Will these conditions occur under Communism?

You will then anwer yourself: NO!

So then you ask yourself: So why/how would religion continue under Communism in the absence of the material conditions that foster its existance?

Then you will begin to splutter and foam at the mouth and say something like this: Ummmm.... Uhh... Well... Errr.... I... Don't .... Know.......

[AGITprop]

Oh of course of course id rather go to the library and order it rather then read it on the internet just for reasons of comfort and such but i certainly will ill have to pick up a book or two on marxism because im not actually sure what the believe in depth.

Actually, i doubt reason in revolt is available in the library. I would suggest contacting marxist.com to order it. It costs around 30 dollars, but really you can read it for free online and it is definitely worth it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Note the use of the word Communism. If the revolution happened tomorrow all across the planet, it would be several generations before we actually were able to implement a communist mode of production.

Now ask yourself this: What is the material basis for religion?

If you have an understanding of communist theory your answer will go something like this: the continued exploitation of the working classes, poverty, alienation, scarcity, and exploitation.

Then ask yourself this: Will these conditions occur under Communism?

You will then anwer yourself: NO!

So then you ask yourself: So why/how would religion continue under Communism in the absence of the material conditions that foster its existance?

Then you will begin to splutter and foam at the mouth and say something like this: Ummmm.... Uhh... Well... Errr.... I... Don't .... Know.......

A big part of why many people are drawn to religion, on their own accord, is fear of the unknown.

The unknown being, of course, death. Now, you can say, "There's nothing unknown about death. You die, and then rot." But this isn't good enough for some people. Why do you think that many elderly people are drawn to religion in their later years in life?

So, I guess my question is, how would Communism defeat this?

Because I don't think you can nail down religion as entirely a factor of exploitation. Possibly organized religion, but people will always have beliefs to explain why they exist; in other words, everyone is the main character in their own story. I don't think that this will ever be eliminated, even if science somehow explains everything.

[jake williams]

If you have an understanding of communist theory your answer will go something like this: the continued exploitation of the working classes, poverty, alienation, scarcity, and exploitation.

Except that that isn't true, so your whole argument goes to shit. Economic institutions and processes can affect or even stimulate religion, sure, but the huge class of things which could be called "religion" contains a great number of things that have nothing to do with economic conditions. There's just too much involved, from dress clothes to metaphysics.

[victim77]

Ive been thinking over the past week or so and i just couldn't figure out one problem with my vision of a "Perfect" society.
Religion.
Its pretty obvious that people won't just completely give up their religion in that society.
My perfect picture for an anarchist society is completely devoid of any religion whatsoever as they only prove to create problems and the followers often blindly follow a hierachy of officials in the church (Priest, bishop etc). No money system either where everyone puts there food into a local pot where everyone can take just what the need to survive. No police force as the people would be held responsible for policing themselves in their own individual community. This all depends on the ideal that "Birds of a kind flock together". Each community would be made up of people with alike thinking. (As you wouldn't want to live in a community with everyone else disagreeing with you) Of course theres going to be communities that will be revolved around drugs and other factors but only the people who "want" to be in that community will go to it. Of course theres the problem of the people who can't work for themselves and need another person assistance (IE Mentally ill people) that would be taken care of by the people that have compassion for them. Still after thinking and agreeing with my whole ideal ive based it on everyone being an atheist. Religion would inviviitably cause problems. But would they just create a community of like people that worship the same faith?
So my question basiclly is how would Religion fit into an Anarchist society?

I believe religion should be a personal pursuit and should not be forced on others or disputed publicly.