Agreed. But the vast majority of those people are middle class students anyways, so bourgeois ideology is only to be expected.
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"Red Christianity" and Opression Olympics
The stench of christianity is breathed by the lungful by a lot of people in the left.
I am tired of that bullshit of, the most "opressed" and "miserable" you are, the most revolutionary you are. This is so incredibly unmarxist, and is more a kin to liberalism than anything else. This is also the line taken by many "thirdworldists". However, the only people bold enough (and crazy enough) to bring that line to its conclusion are MIMites, who are nothing more than violent liberals.
The proletariat is the revolutionary class because the economy is built on its back. Opression is also part of this, but it is not the main thing that makes the proletariat a revolutionary category.
The most miserable and wretched people are generally immersed in sectarian conflicts rather than revolutionary class struggle. The most confident of their capablities as a class are generally more "well off" workers, like the ones in the ranks of Unions, etc. Its erroneous to think that it is despair that breeds militancy. It can help breeding it, but it seems to me that class action emerges more from confidence than anything else.
Last edited by black magick hustla; 22nd February 2008 at 04:23.
Formerly dada
[URL="https://gemeinwesen.wordpress.com/"species being[/URL] - A magazine of communist polemic
Agreed. But the vast majority of those people are middle class students anyways, so bourgeois ideology is only to be expected.
What are MIMites?
A little internet group movement that is in California (I think) and considers all sex in capitalism /patriarchy to be rape, all the 1st world proletariat to be imperialistic labor aristocrats (etc), and other things. They also write "odd" using United $nakes, Amerikkka, etc.
Supposedly revleft was strong enough to (temporary? permenatly?) retire their movement.
It was never much of a movement...although I always wodnered if they disliked 1st world workers why didn't the go and join the revolutionary movements in the 3rd world?
"My heart sings for you both. Imagine it singing. la la la la."- Hannah Kay
"if you keep calling average working people idiots i am sure they will be more apt to listen to what you have to say. "-bcbm
"Sometimes false consciousness can be more destructive than apathy, just like how sometimes, doing nothing is actually better than doing the wrong thing."- Robocommie
"The ruling class would tremble, and the revolution would be all but assured." -Explosive Situation, on the Revleft Merry Prankster bus
I'm very confused.
What is going on?
Is this a polemic about Christianity or people whining about how oppressed they are?
Or is this a critic of MIM's refuted a million times aristocracy line?
"The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
Workers of the World Unite!" -Karl Marx
"The dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy. Simultaneously with an immense expansion of democracy, which for the first time becomes democracy for the poor, democracy for the people, and not democracy for the money-bags, the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists. " -Vladimir Lenin
"The People's democratic dictatorship needs the leadership of the working class. For it is only the working class that is most far-sighted, most selfless and most thoroughly revolutionary. The entire history of revolution proves that without the leadership of the working class revolution fails and that with the leadership of the working class revolution triumphs." -Mao Zedong
Tiny creatures that live among the left feeding off it's detritus.
"The most miserable and wretched people are generally immersed in sectarian conflicts rather than revolutionary class struggle. The most confident of their capablities as a class are generally more "well off" workers, like the ones in the ranks of Unions, etc. Its erroneous to think that it is despair that breeds militancy. It can help breeding it, but it seems to me that class action emerges more from confidence than anything else."
I don't see how this is true, comrade. The most miserable and wretched people in the world are generally workers and peasants in the industrializing or unindustrialized countries, places like northern South America, southeast Asia, Africa, etc. These also happen to be the places where the communist movement is most united and able to actually contest for economic and state power. The most well-off elements of the left (primarily first-world students) tend to be the most sectarian and the ones who are at a low ebb of class struggle. In Latin America and Southeast Asia workers and peasants have managed to organize large-scale united parties that are able to field organized military strength, challenge the state and set-up independent areas of the economy. In the US and EU the left is divided into dozens of groups that are off the "political map" for the majority of people and are only really able to organize demonstrations and the very occasional strike (which usually ends up selling out).
Oppression is important to Marxism. People generally do not rebel for change simply because the alternative is more efficient or some economic law makes it logical. People have to be unsatisfied if they are going to push for change. This is why "Marxism is humanism", because it is centered around human needs and desires, not philosophy or "immutable" laws of economics.
Revolutionaries want to end all oppression, not just class differences. Sectarian struggles are caused by the structure of the global economy. It must be incredibly easy to just wash your hands of anyone who isn't already a fully developed secular progressive class-conscious proletarian. It is also incredibly useless and ends up making you authoritarian against the vast majority of existing social movements.
By the way I wrote you a reply in the Español forum to your thread criticising Latin American natinalism, which is related to this. It's still there if you want to deal with it.
Last edited by Zurdito; 22nd February 2008 at 23:19.
Lenin’s internationalism is by no means a form of reconciliation of Nationalism and Internationalism in words but a form of international revolutionary action. The territory of the earth inhabited by so-called civilized man is looked upon as a coherent field of combat on which the separate peoples and classes wage gigantic warfare against each other. No single question of importance can be forced into a national frame.
Leon Trotsky
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