Buddhism between materialism and idealism

[Revolucija]

So, I'm writing an article about buddhism (between materialism and idealism) and I would be grateful for any help/information/text

Maybe topic sound a bit crazy, but actually it is very interesting. Hope to learn many things while writing this.

Here is what I have found:

http://www.uq.net.au/slsoc/bsq/marxbud.htm

[PRC-UTE]

I'll give it a look...

[weareyoume]

very interesting. does anyone here believe in a supreme being?

[RedAnarchist]

Few members of this forum believe in a supreme being, although we do have a small minority.

[RedStarOverChina]

I always love to mention the fact that the Buddha himself had been plagued by backpain.

That alone bankrupts the entire Buddhist idealist/spiritualist paradigm. "Spirituality" can NEVER overcome material reality. NEVER.

[Gitfiddle Jim]

very interesting. does anyone here believe in a supreme being?

No.

[UndergroundConnexion]

Im reading about Budhism now aswell, and would be very interested to read your final article.

[Honggweilo]

Lol there is a good book writen about Buddism and Marxist dialectics by Japser Schaaf.. but its in dutch

http://www.jasperschaaf.nl/index_bestanden/Page996.htm

[ArabRASH]

Buddhists GENERALLY don't believe in a supreme being, and neither do they believe that the Buddha was a supreme or supernatural being.

"The view that the Buddha was through and through human would not, on the face of it, be disputed by most Buddhists throughout history. 'A man, extraordinary, but human' is how one teacher has put it."

The problem is people always start to see "religious authorities" as "different from the common folk," and it is in their human nature to deify the Buddha. Regarding this:

"The Buddha will ask you to 'go against the flow' and resist this human proclivity. He will want to remind you that 'it is within this six foot body, with its mind and its concepts' that he realized and subsequently declared the teachings. Can we take a clear-eyed view of the Buddha as a fully embodied ordinary human being, as depicted in this statement? It may turn out that such a view is actually necessary for an understanding of his teachings."

Source: The Basic Teachings of the Buddha, by Glenn Wallis.

Just some general knowledge Cheers...

[Orange Revolution]

[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. Buddha Siddattha Gautama

[/FONT][/FONT]All that we are is the result of what we have thought. [FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]Buddha Siddattha Gautama[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/FONT]I lean towards a Buddhist philosophy. Buddhism sits nicely with socialist thought, you could even call his teachings one of the first socialist doctrines(Discuss). He certainly never saw himself as a supreme being. There is a book, 'Buddhism Without Beliefs' but I can't remember the author.[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/FONT]

[RedStarOverChina]

Buddhism sits nicely with socialist thought,

No it doesn't. It's idealist bullshit. According to Buddhism, the suffering of the working class is merely an illusion. In essence, the oppressed are expected to shut up and pretend you don't care..

That's why Buddhism has been so popular with Oriental despots---Except that few of them buy into it themselves.

[The Advent of Anarchy]

very interesting. does anyone here believe in a supreme being?

I once tried believing, but I have thoughts, which fuck up the faith shit. Just ask any catholic priest.
-Paraphrase of Lewis Black

A very small minority of people believe in a Supreme Being, but they don't seem to actually think.

[Vageli]

I always love to mention the fact that the Buddha himself had been plagued by backpain.

That alone bankrupts the entire Buddhist idealist/spiritualist paradigm. "Spirituality" can NEVER overcome material reality. NEVER.

In regards to this, I just wanted to mention that it is rather interesting that monks can subject themselves to quite harsh conditions and yet remain there peacefully while meditating. Our gateway to reality lies in our brains; modify the brain, and you modify your experience of reality.

[Vageli]

Sorry for the double post.

No it doesn't. It's idealist bullshit. According to Buddhism, the suffering of the working class is merely an illusion.

No, I believe that is according to you.

Buddhism teaches that all beings are interconnected with each other. In fact, everything in the entire universe is bonded with everything else. If that doesn't sound like working for the greater good of all existing things, I don't know what does.

[chimx]

No it doesn't. It's idealist bullshit. According to Buddhism, the suffering of the working class is merely an illusion. In essence, the oppressed are expected to shut up and pretend you don't care..

Buddhists don't think suffering is an illusion in the sense that you mean it. Probably the most important basic tenet of Buddhism is that living life means to suffer. Buddhism is about how to circumvent human suffering.

Buddhists GENERALLY don't believe in a supreme being

No, they don't. And many Zen Buddhists try to destroy the cult of the Buddha. Thus the famous quote, "if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha". Buddhism is about self-emancipation, not idolatry.

[Vageli]

No, they don't. And many Zen Buddhists try to destroy the cult of the Buddha. Thus the famous quote, "if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha". Buddhism is about self-emancipation, not idolatry.

Well put. Buddhism contends that we are all Buddha, or at least are capable of Buddha nature. Thus when you become self-emancipated, you are becoming the Buddha. Or to put it differently, when you free yourself from all suffering, you have achieved Buddha nature.

Buddhists don't think suffering is an illusion in the sense that you mean it. Probably the most important basic tenet of Buddhism is that living life means to suffer. Buddhism is about how to circumvent human suffering.

For an example of this just take a look at one of the Buddhist marks of existence (there are three): Dukkha (or unsatisfactoriness) - Nothing found in the physical world or even the psychological realm can bring lasting deep satisfaction.

[ChairmanArt]

very interesting. does anyone here believe in a supreme being?

I would generally think that this is an atheistic forum, which includes myself: A Seon Buddhist (Seon is the Korean manifestation of the Japanese Zen, which both come from the Chinese Ch'an. Basically, I'm from the contemplative school).

To be honest, I don't think what has been said here either supporting or criticizing Buddhism is very accurate. In my personal experience, Buddhism is more of a lifestyle in which you are simply taught to meditate and told to discover the truth for yourself, rather than some dogmatic religion in which you are presented with the truth. Therefore, it is more accurate to say that Buddhists don't really believe anything (and those who write books about our so-called belief system tend to not know what they're talking about), other than the four most basic principles to which all of us who call ourselves Buddhists adhere:
1. That all life is suffering
2. That at the root cause of this suffering is one's own ego, basically a mask that is been molded from desire, ignorance, and anger (the three poisons).
3. That there can be emancipation from this suffering through shattering the mask and discovering one's True Nature (Buddha), which is also the True Nature of all Beings.
4. The Way to this emancipation is the Noble Eightfold Path (the most important step of which is Seon Buddhism is the seventh, dhyana, or meditation, which we consider the way the Founder, Shakyamuni Buddha Himself discovered the Truth).

In terms of the juxtaposition of Buddhist and Socialist philosophies, I would say that Buddhism is fundamentally divorced from politics and dialectical materialism, because it considers these things to all be characteristics of the world of suffering that is formed by the ego of human beings, and is fond of retreating into the mountains to discover the world of Buddhahood. Therefore, use of Buddhism as a political tool is really contrary to Shakyamuni's teaching (the Dharma).
In terms of the workers, as a Buddhist with revolutionary communist leanings, I would say that Buddhism would say that the solution to the plight of the oppressed and exploited workers would be for them to accept their fate (karma) and practice meditation toward the attainment of Buddhahood. But, that's the thing about Buddhism: it's not a religion, it's a lifestyle, and it recognizes that it's really not for everybody. So, those who want to come into the mountain monasteries and gain freedom from suffering that way, that's fine, and those that want to destroy capitalism and have a revolution to create a new world based on entirely new production relations, that's fine, too. No Buddhist will look down on you either way

[Vageli]

But, that's the thing about Buddhism: it's not a religion, it's a lifestyle, and it recognizes that it's really not for everybody. So, those who want to come into the mountain monasteries and gain freedom from suffering that way, that's fine, and those that want to destroy capitalism and have a revolution to create a new world based on entirely new production relations, that's fine, too. No Buddhist will look down on you either way

I agreed with what you were saying up until this point. In my understanding of Buddhism (myself coming from the Zen and Taoist schools of thought) all living beings must reach Nirvana in order to end the Karmic cycle. So in a sense, Buddhism is for everyone if you want to stop the constant death and rebirth of your soul. We are only alive now because our former lives have not reached the state of Nirvana, causing us to be reborn again in order to attempt reaching that point.

[Destroy capitalism]

so we have materialists believing in re-incarnation? just what material part of your material body survives the cessation of energy flow in your body, and in what material is it preserved and how until it re-enters a conceived creature and how does it do this last part of the stunt? even wildly wildly hypothetically? if you have to have a spirituality I agree Buddhism is probably the most harmless one -meditation has been shown to have alpha wave effects on the brain but ordinary relaxation techniques provide the same effect. however all those hours spent navel gazing might more profitably be spent. are you REALLY that special that contemplating yourself is the way to go?as for right speech right action and the rest of the rules, all religions promote do-gooding.Buddhism is incompatible with Marxism because we are materialists -yes their panpsychic cosmology is looking better and better as astrophysics comes to -at a stretch-similar conclusions, but still, the Dalai Lama says he's not going to be re-incarnated til Tibet is free. Does anyone here SERIOUSLY believe he'll be reincarnated AT ALL, never mind at his own discretion?

[Vageli]

so we have materialists believing in re-incarnation? just what material part of your material body survives the cessation of energy flow in your body, and in what material is it preserved and how until it re-enters a conceived creature and how does it do this last part of the stunt? even wildly wildly hypothetically? if you have to have a spirituality I agree Buddhism is probably the most harmless one -meditation has been shown to have alpha wave effects on the brain but ordinary relaxation techniques provide the same effect. however all those hours spent navel gazing might more profitably be spent. are you REALLY that special that contemplating yourself is the way to go?as for right speech right action and the rest of the rules, all religions promote do-gooding.Buddhism is incompatible with Marxism because we are materialists -yes their panpsychic cosmology is looking better and better as astrophysics comes to -at a stretch-similar conclusions, but still, the Dalai Lama says he's not going to be re-incarnated til Tibet is free. Does anyone here SERIOUSLY believe he'll be reincarnated AT ALL, never mind at his own discretion?

The reincarnation is not of our own discretion, it is an endless cycle stopped only by becoming one with all existence (Nirvana). To be completely honest, I too was at first skeptical. But now I have come to realize that we are all only projections on this plane of existence. We could have been dogs, cats, plants, what have you. But in this life we were projected as humans. This great realization came after having experienced Nirvana for my first time. That being said, I am still doomed to live on and on forever because I do not live in a constant state of enlightenment; most of us will experience enlightenment at one point or another in our lives and the best way to describe it would be saying you are truly "in the zone" but even that description fails to accurately describe the feeling.

I have found that I can hold Buddhist beliefs and still be heavily leftist because, although the world is full of suffering our struggle against capitalism is not meaningless. We can still work to better our current existence even though we will all eventually die.

The ideas presented are just my beliefs. I give them only because you asked for clarification and I in no way am attempting to spread my beliefs or impose them onto anyone here. A belief is just that, a belief. Either you believe it or you don't, simple as that.