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I often argue with fascist workers. It is necessary.
Devrim
No, I don't think there is much of a connection at all. I believe that the BNP were looking towards more sophisticated fascist groups in Europe, and saw the way to go. Le Pen's electoral success probably has more to do with it than Red Action.
Devrim
It is?
In the US, people that are openly-fascist are so few in number, that even "meeting" them by chance is such a small happening, that it isn't "necessary" to have a little debate with them.
The Red Front Fighter's league had a motto during the 30's: Smash the Nazi wherever you see him!
And you can be sure they had MANY more Nazis to deal with than we do now.
Not everybody lives in the US. I live in a country where the biggest fascist party is the third biggest party in parliament, and got around 15% of the vote (about 5,000,000) in the last elections.
I work with people who vote for fascist parties, and even have personal friends who are members of parties that we consider to be fascist.
So let's look at one real practical example, the current national Telekom strike. There are 26,000 strikers. Even if we imagine that only 10% voted fascist, that would still leave over 2,500 of the strikers as fascist voters. What do you suggest that we do, attack them on picket lines? No, that is absurd. We argue for class politics.
Devrim
Havent the BNP always been neo-nazis and racists?
After all, there are very fiew, almost no fascist parties out there. I have heard that Benito Mussolinis granddoughter Allessandra Mussolini had one, but after having read and studiet it a bit, it seems to be more of a rightwing populist party, with some racism added. Allessandra is by the way a ex-pornstar, and there are still hardcore pics of here on the web.... Grandpa would not have been proud I think. But its kind of cool that they have kept the family name though. Hitlers family, and Quislings family all chickened out and changed surnames after their family-dictator fucked upp. It kind of shows how a open and tolerant society Italy is. Its probably cool people in the Mussolini family as well, no body are their grandfather.
But nazis..... Everywhere. A thing about neo-nazis is that they always lie. They love democracy, and they only want to keep their "cultural heritage" intact, they are not racists, oh no! They are only concious about the differences, and so on.
Modern nazism is only about double standards, loosers and rebels without a cause. I think that its important to know that double standards and hidden messages is a important part of modern nazi-ideology. Dont take them to seriously.
First of all, Specter, please PM me links to Alessandra Mussolini porn. Thanks
Devrim, the fact not only do you have friends who are fascists, but that you openly declare it on a revolutionary leftist forum is pathetic. I don't care if 50% of your voters are fascists, YOU decide who YOUR FRIENDS ARE.
I imagine with so many fascists in your country (what country, btw?), there is a strong leftist movement as well. It's not like you'd be alone, fighting against a hundred Nazis.
Find people who will back you up, and form a solid organization. And stop being friends with Nazis!!
Devrim lives in Turkey
Oh ffs.
If we're not allowed to know workers who vote for fascists, why should we be allowed to know people vote for bouguisie politians?
Why don't we have our own Red dating services <_<
"How you cling to your purity, young man! How afraid you are to soil your hands! All right, stay pure! What good will it do? Why did you join us? Purity is an idea for a yogi or a monk. You intellectuals and Bourgeois anarchists use it as a pretext for doing nothing. To do nothing, to remain motionless, arms at your sides, wearing kids gloves. Well, I have dirty hands. Right up to the elbows. I've plunged them in the filth and blood. But what do you hope? Do you think you'll govern innocently?"-Jean-Paul Sartre
+1
Just do a picture search on google ore yahoo, and remember to turn of the adult-filter. Here name is Allessandra Mussolini, but she is not so pretty, at least I dont think so.
I think you are talking about two different things - obviously we need to argue with workers who are just confused and vote for fascist parties, but hardcore, commited and active fascists are what I believe red hooligan was talking about fighting.
besides, if you weren't so narrow in your focus you'd realise that for many on here fraternising with fascists is not an option.
'...the proletariat, not wishing to be treated as a canaille, needs its courage, its self-esteem, its pride, and its sense of independence more than its bread.' Marx...★
★...★
........★....★
..........★..★ Starry Plough Magazine
'From its origin the bourgeoisie was saddled with its antithesis: capitalists cannot exist without wage workers' - Engels, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
Stop Killer Coke
Also some of us have fascists as family.
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if some people on here considered them to be socialists, but that is besides the point.
Are you trying to say that everybody that we mix with must be ideologically pure? Maybe before I chat to the guy next to me at the football, I should give him an ideology test.
Should we also cut off contact with all workers who consider themselves to be socialists, but are going along with the current war euphoria? I was talking to a railway worker, who I am pretty sure is a member of the CHP (Republican People's Party) the other week, and he told me that 'We are going to cleanse the Kurds'. What are you saying I should do? Never speak to him again, or argue for class politics?
I notice that you don't answer the question about what to do about fascist strikers. I will just repeat it:
As somebody mentioned before, it is Turkey. I will just give you a little information about the last time there were big struggles against the fascists here. The left had a full on war with the Grey Wolves in the run up to the 1980 coup. There were an average of 30 political murders a day in Istanbul alone. MHP members were actually charged with 694 murders in that year. After the coup over 650,000 people were arrested, and detained.
One of the things about it though was the extent to which the left lost any connection at all with the working class, and just became another street gang.
Actually, I have at times fought fascists in the streets. I am a member of a communist organisation, and I will decide who my own friends are thank you.
I would advise you to get rid of the moralism, and develop a class analysis.
Devrim
One of our members does too.
Devrim
At the time of the 1980 coup in Turkey the Grey Wolf organisations had about 200,000 registered members and a million sympathisers (and a sympathiser would be more active than most members of UK, or Irish leftist parties).
I am sure that among that 1,200,000 people there were many workers. Are you writing them all off.
Devrim
Are you posing this as a serious question? That is, are you pretending that this rare instance is a typical example?
I'd need to know a lot more - how many exactly were workers? How large is the total w/c pop in Turkey, etc.
Notice that I did not try to put out an 'iron law' for dealing with pro-fascist workers, but spoke from experience. There were no mass or even moderately popular fascist movement where I've lived (excpet when I lived in Germany).
'...the proletariat, not wishing to be treated as a canaille, needs its courage, its self-esteem, its pride, and its sense of independence more than its bread.' Marx...★
★...★
........★....★
..........★..★ Starry Plough Magazine
'From its origin the bourgeoisie was saddled with its antithesis: capitalists cannot exist without wage workers' - Engels, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
Stop Killer Coke
Yeah, I know. I'm just being soo unreasonable by saying that Marxists shouldn't have "friends" who are openly fascist!
You're judged by the company you keep, you realize. Why would anyone WANT to be friends with Nazis?
Fascists and bourgeois politicians are fundamentally different.
Voting for bourgeois politicians is simply an ignorant act in futility. It won't change anything.
Voting for fascist politicians is an act of aggression. If a fascist party takes control of your government, you can expect quite a few "changes" to come about. The few "freedoms" that the bourgeois governments granted you will be swept away, not to mention whatever campaigns of racial/ethnic killings, as well as a historically-large increase in political imprisonments.
Being "friends" with folks that entertain silly ideas, such as bourgeois politicians is not harmful. Being friends with folks that vote fascist, is something quite else.
Ha ha. Not quite, but if the guy next to you at a football game has Nazi patches on his jacket, or is sporting pro-fascist clothing, WHAT IS THE OBVIOUS next step? Have a friendly chat? "In light of our differences, its great to be here man. Good game, huh? blah blah blah, I'm trying not to alienate workers who may be far-right".
If someone told me he wanted to "cleanse" any ethnic group, I would say to him,
"What the fuck do you mean? That kind of shit disgusts me. If that's what you're into, you're talking to the wrong guy."
You've fought fascists in the streets...the same ones you're "friends" with? What if you met THEM in a street battle one night? Would you "take it easy" on them, or even run away? Gosh, don't want to alienate the pro-fascist workers. We need to argue with them, right?
Yeah, choose your own friends, pal. Don't come to the US looking for 'em, you'll come up very lonely.
I'm not against communists becoming friends or "friendly" with fascists for moral reasons. I'm against it because we are in a perpetual state of war. This means, to me, that any tactics that we can employ to weaken the enemy are viable and fair game. There are no "rules".
Except, fraternization with the enemy is DEPLORABLE. The only times in which I've had to "resort" to verbal confrontations with fascists is at high-risk venues, where any kind of physical action would be a gurranteed-arrest.
If what you're doing "works" for you, then have a blast with it.
Whoops, forgot to address Devrim's ignored-point.
Fascist voters are inherently anti-worker. Nazis and KDP members stood side-by-side during strikes in Germany, 1930's.
What they SHOULD have done, is treated molotov cocktails and bricks to the heads of Nazis, as much as they did the police! T
Any breathing room we give them to organize, will come back to bite us in the ass later on. We'll slap our heads, and realize that we should have been BASHING THEM and keeping them from getting strong in the first place.
By the way, if the fascists have safety and freedom to "exist" in a workers' strike, then they ARE organizing, this you can be sure. That isn't "OK" with me.
To sum it up, yes, on the picket line you should identify who is "with you" in the long run, or who is a detriment to your struggle.
Yes, I am posing it as a serious question. Whether, or not it is a rare instance is not really the point. It is the context that I live in, and it is me who is being personally attacked here for having fascist friends*.
Certainly a majority, the only question is how large.
Quite wise, I would say. Notice that somebody on this thread is suggesting that we attack striking workers on picket lines.
Please note, I am not saying that there are times when it is not necessary to physically fight with the fascists. I am saying that the left has a fetish about it.
Devrim
*Actually, it is a couple of people one of whom is the husband of a friend of twenty plus years, who are in the İsçi Partisi (Worker's Party), an 'ex'-Maoist organisation, which is now collaborating with the fascists because it considers Turkey to be an oppressed nation.
