Skinheads are not Fascists or Nazis

[spartan]

bgm:

'Being macho' reinforces the prototypical patriarchal man - that to be a 'man' is to be strong and aggressive; to dominate others - often women (the gap between machismo and chauvinism is slight).

I can understand where you are coming from with this reply but not all "macho" men are reinforces of patriarchy indeed that is an unfair generalization as aggressivness is not always the same as macho.

What do you think is 'right' about being macho?

Nothing but i also dont see a problem with it that much either.

so what do you think is undesirable about effeminacy?

I have no problem with effeminacy i just dont see why macho men should stop being macho! What right have you to tell them that?

More importantly, why do you limit maleness to a choice between machismo and effeminacy?

That was a genuine mistake for which i am sorry. I just wanted you to see that alot of men might like being macho just like alot of men like to be effeminate and that we should not have a problem with either.

Is this at all related to your admiration (?) of Sparta? (You never replied in that other thread... what exactly is the story behind your username? What links if any do you see between yourself and the Spartans?)

I do not admire the Spartans! (Well they were good soldiers but that is another matter entirely) And i see no "links" between myself and the ancient Spartans! It is just a user name i thought of and liked. Origionally i wanted something connected to the ancient rebel gladiator Spartacus but i could not have it for some reason so i thought why not Spartacus the Spartan (Though he was actually a Thracian i just thought they looked good toghether because the two terms sounded similar) but then i thought why not shorten it to simply spartan? And that is what i did. Honestly bgm you should not read too much into a username.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Fawkes+--> (Fawkes)By no means was it solely built around aggresive behavior.[/b]

I accept that there's more to being a skin than just being tough and manly - like you said, class, clothing and music play a part - but what other kind of behaviour is a strong focus of skin culture (specifically, the sorts of things that contradict this hyper masculine mentality)?

As a product of their surroundings, many skinheads developed aggresive demeanors.

Many or most? In other words do you think the aggression and masculinity thing is a characteristic of the majority of skins? A minority? If an emphasis on a traditional form of masculinity is common - do you think this is a positive thing for young working class men? If so, why?

Originally posted by Fawkes@
You seem to be under the impression that aggresiveness is what defines a skinhead.

By no means - i'm more interested in the links between skin culture and traditional forms of (hyper) masculinity (of which aggressiveness is a part).

Fawkes

The great thing about the skinhead culture is that it united/unites working class people of both sexes and all ethnicities into a relatively like-minded group.

There are many female skins? And female skin groups?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by bleeding gums malatesta+September 21, 2007 01:46 pm--> (bleeding gums malatesta @ September 21, 2007 01:46 pm)

Originally posted by Fawkes+--> (Fawkes)By no means was it solely built around aggresive behavior.[/b]

I accept that there's more to being a skin than just being tough and manly - like you said, class, clothing and music play a part - but what other kind of behaviour is a strong focus of skin culture (specifically, the sorts of things that contradict this hyper masculine mentality)?

As a product of their surroundings, many skinheads developed aggresive demeanors.

Many or most? In other words do you think the aggression and masculinity thing is a characteristic of the majority of skins? A minority? If an emphasis on a traditional form of masculinity is common - do you think this is a positive thing for young working class men? If so, why?

Fawkes

@
You seem to be under the impression that aggresiveness is what defines a skinhead.

By no means - i'm more interested in the links between skin culture and traditional forms of (hyper) masculinity (of which aggressiveness is a part).

Fawkes

The great thing about the skinhead culture is that it united/unites working class people of both sexes and all ethnicities into a relatively like-minded group.

There are many female skins? And female skin groups? [/b]

As far as effeminate behavior amongst skinheads I can't really give you a positive answer on because that's generally something that is different in each individual. Aggresive behavior is common, but skinheads still have other non-macho characteristics such as relationships with others (as in dating) where the male is not controlling.

As a product of their surroundings, many skinheads developed aggresive demeanors.

Many or most? In other words do you think the aggression and masculinity thing is a characteristic of the majority of skins? A minority? If an emphasis on a traditional form of masculinity is common - do you think this is a positive thing for young working class men? If so, why?

I would say many, but obviously there is no definite number. As for the last question, I think it can be positive. A willingness to act out violently in certain situations is a very positive thing, it just depends on what triggers it and at whom it is directed.

There are many female skins? And female skin groups?

Certainly. A large portion of skinheads are female.

[Black Dagger]

Originally posted by Spartan+--> (Spartan)but not all "macho" men are reinforces of patriarchy indeed that is an unfair generalization[/b]

Right, not all - just most? Considering that 'macho' is defined as being an aggressive, domineering male - the link between macho and patriarchal behaviour is quite explicit

Perhaps, i would understand your POV better if you explained what you mean when you say 'macho'? Because by any orthodox definition of the term 'macho' such man are clearly reinforcing patriarchal norms of behaviour.

Originally posted by spartan+--> (spartan)
as aggressivness is not always the same as macho.[/b]

I didn't say that it was; rather the former is a part of the latter.

Originally posted by spartan
Nothing but i also dont see a problem with it that much either.

Really?

I mean, even reading the bourgeois dictionary, 'macho' doesn't exactly sound too pleasant...

Originally posted by dictionary.com
ma·cho /ˈmɑtʃoʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mah-choh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, noun, plural -chos.
–adjective
1. having or characterized by qualities considered manly, esp. when manifested in an assertive, self-conscious, or dominating way.
2. having a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate.
–noun
3. assertive or aggressive manliness; machismo.
4. an assertively virile, dominating, or domineering male.

n. pl. ma·chos

1. Machismo.
2. A person characterized by or exhibiting machismo.

Machismo being defined as:

–noun
1. a strong or exaggerated sense of manliness; an assumptive attitude that virility, courage, strength, and entitlement to dominate are attributes or concomitants of masculinity.
2. a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate: The military campaign was an exercise in national machismo.

You don't see a problem with people "having a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate"? Or people assuming that "virility, courage, strength, and entitlement to dominate are attributes or concomitants of masculinity"?

Originally posted by spartan
I have no problem with effeminacy

You could have fooled me.

I attacked the idea of a hyper 'macho' masculinity and you replied by asking me if i would prefer that men were effeminate? As if effeminacy was a negative alternative, all that was missing was a :wacko: smiley at the end.

'Like OMFG, what would you rather? That men were effeminate?! :wacko: '

I.E.

Originally posted by you
What is wrong with being macho? Would you rather we were all effeminate or something? (Not that i have a problem with that).

What else could you have been implying?

Please don't BS me around and pretend that that is not implied by your statement, coz frankly i'm getting tired of you trying to avoid taking responsibility for your words.

Originally posted by spartan

i just dont see why macho men should stop being macho!

I expressed my POV on this clearly in this post and my last; if you disagree please explain why.

spartan

@

What right have you to tell them that?

Huh? I don't have the 'right' to think that being macho is negative?

Even if i explain WHY i think that rather than just stating my opinion and then refusing to explain my reasoning? <_<

spartan

I just wanted you to see that alot of men might like being macho just like alot of men like to be effeminate and that we should not have a problem with either.

And a lot of men &#39;like&#39; being chauvinist pigs, and yes - of course &#39;we&#39; should have a problem with that.

A part of being a revolutionary leftist (you are one of these correct?) is opposing sexism and the oppression of women; not accepting the values proscribed to us by the society we wish to abolish... or defending the &#39;right&#39; of men to be macho (that is, aggressive and domineering).

[Fawkes]

I would just like to point out, bgm, that I agree with what you are saying to spartan.

[Black Dagger]

Don&#39;t worry Fawkes; i didn&#39;t take your defence of skin culture as a defence of patriarchal conceptions of masculinity

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Cencus@September 06, 2007 10:14 am
Madness were actually racist in the days before signing up to 2-tone records but they were talked round by Terry Hall & co. I&#39;ll have a dig round my cd collection and try n find the interview where this is brought up, as it&#39;s not something that gets mentioned much.

Madness weren&#39;t racist. Well, not the whole band as sax player Lee Thompson is left wing. However, lead singer Suggs was linked with the right wing due to his friend ship with skrewdriver singer Ian Stuart. Ian Stuart was a lodger at Suggs mums house and Suggs even got him a roll in the Madness film &#39;Take It Or Leave It&#39;. It has also been said that Suggs was a member of the British Movement before Madness made it big.

[Marxist]

well , you are right with the original 60s skinheads , but in some countries (i live in Slovakia) there are 2 skinhead organisations - one is openly neo-nazi and the second is racist-ultra-right so people quite commonise the mark : shaved head - fascist

[A-S M.]

[Marxist]

why is the black flag in front of the red one?

[Fawkes]

Originally posted by Marxist@October 13, 2007 10:44 am
why is the black flag in front of the red one?

Don&#39;t look too much into it, it&#39;s just a logo.

[A-S M.]

Originally posted by Marxist@October 13, 2007 03:44 pm
why is the black flag in front of the red one?

because anarchists have more fun? : :P just kidding, nah don&#39;t really know why, it&#39;s not really that important i guess

and for the person who said something about tradskin and the apolitic shit, if you&#39;re an apolitic "skinhead" you&#39;re no skin in my eyes, as a skin you have to defend your culture and fight the nazi and racist scum out of the scene, i&#39;m not saying you have to be a leftist, but you certainly can&#39;t be a right winger

[RaiseYourVoice]

Originally posted by Fawkes+October 13, 2007 07:57 pm--> (Fawkes @ October 13, 2007 07:57 pm)

Marxist

@October 13, 2007 10:44 am
why is the black flag in front of the red one?

Don&#39;t look too much into it, it&#39;s just a logo. [/b]

i dont know about your local antifas, but in germany its not "just a logo" but which color is in front is representing which ideology the antifa comes from.

[Revolucija]

That&#39;s stupid. I know that a standard logo looks like this. I think that even better would be a smashing-swastika logo.

Ontopic; it&#39;s very important to note a traditional skinhead culture, which wasn&#39;t apolitical and actually that is the first thing to associate with a word "skinhead". And it definitely can&#39;t be racist or fascist.

I&#39;m writing an article about skinhead subculture for one popular Serbian magazine; going to post it in serbian section when it gets finished.

[AAFCE]

I myself have a shaved head atm, and it gets annoying going around town and random people "sieg heil&#39;ing" me..

Meh

[PRC-UTE]

it wasn&#39;t fascist in its origins, no, but I&#39;d say that some of the trappings of skinhead culture, the machismo and regimentation lent itself well to fascism.

[guerilla E]

Originally posted by TheNewGuy@October 28, 2007 07:18 pm
I myself have a shaved head atm, and it gets annoying going around town and random people "sieg heil&#39;ing" me..

Meh

Im probbly a redskin, got the shaved head and taste of music down, but random people still pull the skinhead fascist shit on me; i just reply &#39;im middle eastern cockhead.&#39; its usually how i make new friends.

I think one of the other misconceptions is that in other european/asian countries long hair has been associated with the hippie culture, whilst shaved heads symbolize a more military scene promoted by fascists officially and on mass scales. I know that in Turkey having a shaved head means two of the following, per social stigma; A) You escaped conscription, or your an army student B) your a fascist. In Aus its more broad, open minded, but generally ignorant people will assume your a neo-nazi thanks to popular media.

We don&#39;t have redskin culture properly and the Istanbul Skinheads (Anti-Nazis) are a bunch of posers who don&#39;t have a clue about their own origins. Go figure...

[Fawkes]

Question: what&#39;s the origin of the Trojan helmet for SHARPs? Why is that logo used?

[jaffe]

Question: what&#39;s the origin of the Trojan helmet for SHARPs? Why is that logo used?

trojan is a recordlabel that released a lot of crucial ska and reggae lp&#39;s.

http://trojanrecords.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Records

[socialistpunk]

This might get treated like a no brainer reply but i thought they got the trojan thing from the brand of condoms :blush: but i now know its from a record label