The American Traditon

[RGacky3]

Many people look at the US and it gets a bad rap (with good reason), but I think its good to remember the Leftist tradition in the States which in my opinion was very unique and very 'American', The Socialist Party with Debs, the IWW, the Black Panthers, The Anarchists Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Sacco and Vanzetti, Chomsky, the Seattle Protests, the Haymarket Riot, the Communist Parties actions during the depression, and so on and so forth.

I think the United States has a good history of Socialists that is Unique (i.e. I don't think American Socialists should always be looking toward Europe, or try and hide who they are) that Americans can be proud of.

[Labor Shall Rule]

I couldn't agree more.

[Tower of Bebel]

Still, there is -I think- no tradition for the masses like in Europe. the US indeed has some unique socialist mouvements, yet there is no tradition for the masses. This makes it hard for a new socialist party to grow.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Don't forget the 1877 General Strike & the Homestead Strike!

[Tower of Bebel]

Those were long ago. For example, the last general strikes and occupations of facotories and companies in Belgium were in the 1970s and 1980s. In this is still almost lost in the memories of the people. Yet Belgium has the tradition of a high rate of syndicalists and syndicalist actions.

[RGacky3]

Originally posted by Raccoon@August 08, 2007 08:10 am
Still, there is -I think- no tradition for the masses like in Europe. the US indeed has some unique socialist mouvements, yet there is no tradition for the masses. This makes it hard for a new socialist party to grow.

Which Makes the American tradition, and the American radicals more noteworthy, they were pushing against the stream.

I think the individualistic, tough guy, independant attitude that America has also has a place in the Socialist tradition, just look at the IWW, those guys were pretty bad ass back in the day. The Socialist Party of Debs and his speaches also put a very American feel on Socialism, the reason I bring that up is that many American Socialists feel that being American is somehow bad, I think that Americans have something to be proud of in their Radical tradition, and something they can build off rather than always looking toward other movements.

[Joby]

I think that it's been harder to build a working-class solidarity movement in America than almost anywere. Outside of anti-semitism, Europe didn't have the huge racial differences that the ruling class in America could play upon so well. Also, Europe was unable to develop any socialism until they handed the torch of world ruler (and its debt) to America. I'm not complaining, this gives Americans extraordinary power for change!

European socialism has done better than America has, but I'm very proud to associate with the American Left, which does have a unique flavor.

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by RGacky3+--> (RGacky3)just look at the IWW, those guys were pretty bad ass back in the day.[/b]

Pictures from the Minneapolis Teamsters Strike: 1, 2,

By the way, those were pipes the workers were using against the police.

Raccoon

Those were long ago.

Perhaps the immigrant strikes last year were a more recent example of the American left in action?

Edit: In the part about the Minneapolis strike, I put the same picture twice.

[bolshevik butcher]

American socialists, like just about any other country, do have a long and proud socialist tradition,characterised by bravoury and a willingness to face anything. It is in my view important that American socialists look to this tradition and try to reinvegorate the best parts of it. However, as has already been mentioned unlike say where I live, in Scotland, this tradition never really had the same mass base.

[syndicat]

radicalism in the USA was never able to gain a secure foothold in working class communities. sometimes radicals developed a mass following mainly in communities of immigrants from Europe, as with the anarchist International Working People's Association of the 1880s, or the German and Jewish and Finnish radical influences in the American Socialist Party before World War I. The Communists in the '30s were undermined ultimately by their association with, and manipulation by, Soviet Communism. it made them sitting ducks for the anti-radical hysteria after World War II because the Soviet regime was not defensible. racism and individualism have a lot to do with why anti-capitalist radicalism hasn't been able to really root itself here. the USA was founded on racial oppression (slavery, genocide against the American Indians) and this left a pattern of division.

however, public attitudes (tho not necessarily the realities of daily life) towards racism shifted as a result of the black freedom struggle and allied movements in the '50s to '70s period. also, for the first time since the founding of the USA, there has been a very major decline in the real standard of living of the American working class, over the past three decades. it may be that these changes make for a somewhat improved objective situation for radicalism but they're really just an opportunity. it's a question of whether or not there will be an increase in the level of struggle, which is not very high, still.

[bootleg42]

As someone who lives in a poor place in the U.S. (inner city NYC), I can tell you that radical thought and radical movements are long dead.

First we have the fact that the TRUE proletariet are out numbered by the labor aristocracy and the petite bourgeoisie. Next we have racism. Poor white guys now hate muslims and latinos more than anyone. I've seen it first hand. I mean there was this poor white lady who lived in my building complaining about all the Latinos moving in our area and that the whole area is now all latino (which is true ). I, being latino, was offended and I told her off. She was very poor but she had hatred for others in her same financial situation only because of race and ethnicity.

Next we have the new political leaders who claim to represent the "poor" (and many of the poor believe them, Al Sharpton, etc). They all depend on the Democrats. It's sick. And the poor don't protest anymore. It seems like the petite bourgeoisie only do protests and their protests are a joke (doing it on weekends when everyone is off, getting permits to do it, having picnics and selling T-Shirts during the protest).

There was once a tradition of true protest and radical thinking but it's long dead here. Socialism can succeed in other countries, not in the U.S. Just think it like this, in the U.S. the poor will die for the rich before they die for themselves. It's sad. That's why I do most of my political activity when I go back to Bolivia and Venezuela. I have no faith in the U.S. people and I was born here.

[Black Cross]

Originally posted by bootleg42@August 09, 2007 06:37 pm
I have no faith in the U.S. people and I was born here.

Unfortunately, I agree. I believe people have been made too docile and complacent by propaganda in the states. They believe all too strongly that this system is right because that is the lie they are fed by the government, which they trust (for some reason).

The proletariat of this country want better lives for themselves and their families, but they aren't willing to do anything about it (mostly because they don't think there is anything to do about it).

[Kwisatz Haderach]

No, no, no, NO. The reason why there is not a serious working class revolutionary movement in the United States is PRECISELY because people give up like that before they've even tried.

And by "trying," I don't mean attempting to win over a few workers, or even a lot of workers over the course of a few years. Fact #1: There is no working class socialist movement in the United States. Fact #2: It took decades for the first socialist movements to get off the ground in the 19th century. It WILL take decades to build a socialist movement in the US, but it CAN be done.

There is no way - no way in hell - that people in the US today could possibly be more docile than people in 19th century Russia who believed the Tsar to be the emissary of God.

[RedJacobin]

Originally posted by RGacky3@August 08, 2007 06:28 am
Many people look at the US and it gets a bad rap (with good reason), but I think its good to remember the Leftist tradition in the States which in my opinion was very unique and very 'American', The Socialist Party with Debs, the IWW, the Black Panthers, The Anarchists Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Sacco and Vanzetti, Chomsky, the Seattle Protests, the Haymarket Riot, the Communist Parties actions during the depression, and so on and so forth.

I think the United States has a good history of Socialists that is Unique (i.e. I don't think American Socialists should always be looking toward Europe, or try and hide who they are) that Americans can be proud of.

Just being polemical here...

IMHO, the Panthers were the best and most revolutionary among the individuals and organizations on your list. I wonder what they would have thought about being lumped into some kind of mythical "American tradition." I imagine they wouldn't have been very positive about it.

I've read essays by liberals who butcher Malcolm X's legacy in a similar way by claiming that he too represented a radical "American tradition," when it should be clear to all who have a passing familiarity with Malcolm's life and work that, first of all, he didn't even consider himself an American and, secondly, he saw himself as a victim and opponent of Americanism.

While it's important for people to know about the history of socialist and communist movements in the US, I would argue that radicals should not see themselves as representing a "very unique and very American" tradition, however left-wing it might be. Communists, as the political representatives of the international proletariat, have no nation. The struggles of working people all over the world are the communist tradition.

There is quite a bit of difference between acting as a communist and raising the red flag in all circumstances and acting as a Howard Zinn-type radical and trying to reclaim the red-white-and-blue (and trying to erase the history of white supremacy, slavery, genocide, and imperialism that it represents). Only one of these approaches is going to lead to the real emancipation of humanity.

[bootleg42]

Originally posted by Edric O@August 09, 2007 07:50 pm
There is no way - no way in hell - that people in the US today could possibly be more docile than people in 19th century Russia who believed the Tsar to be the emissary of God.

There is more money in the U.S. today than there was in Russia at that time. Remember, one of the biggest reasons there is no working class is due to the labor aristocracy numbers (in terms of population). I mean I live and grew up with the potential working class of the United States and they're not happy nor are they very patriotic (mainly because we're mostly latinos and we identify more with the culture of our parent's countries). There is a potential to create a working class with the people in the inner city (african-americans, latinos, etc) BUT they will be outnumbered overwhelmingly by the labor aristocracy and the petite bourgeoisie. It's more about numbers more than about people being "docile".

Also you can't ignore racism and ethnocentrism in the U.S.. Will the majority of poor whites work with poor blacks to fight the elite (who have both white and black members themselves)????? Will the white population swallow the idea that their beloved "founding fathers" were slaving owner rich rapists???? We also need to question the United Statian African-American population. Would they desire true revolutionary socialism or do they just want to be in the same position as the white capitalists (meaning that they get a chance WITHIN capitalism like the whites do, their current mainstream movements makes me believe so)????

[Random Precision]

I'll count down the time until the thread is pissed on by Maoists spouting off about "amerikkka" and how our country and proletariat should be destroyed because of the politics of the "u.$" state.

They seem to forget that their beloved Mao supported Amerikkka against the USSR, and was friends with the reactionary u.$ president Richard Nixon.

[RGacky3]

I was kind of waiting for that too :P.

About the so-called labor Aristocracy, I think that people in that group can be radicalized easily, I would probably be considered part of that group, and although, we are comparativly well paid, we are still exploited and most know that, also most members of the labor Aristocracy have an educational background, so the only basis for the exploitation is ownership, so many of the labor Aristocracy can see that and want to fight back.

While it's important for people to know about the history of socialist and communist movements in the US, I would argue that radicals should not see themselves as representing a "very unique and very American" tradition, however left-wing it might be. Communists, as the political representatives of the international proletariat, have no nation. The struggles of working people all over the world are the communist tradition.

There is quite a bit of difference between acting as a communist and raising the red flag in all circumstances and acting as a Howard Zinn-type radical and trying to reclaim the red-white-and-blue (and trying to erase the history of white supremacy, slavery, genocide, and imperialism that it represents). Only one of these approaches is going to lead to the real emancipation of humanity

I'm not suggesting raising the red-white-and-blue, nor do I think Howerd Zinn was/is trying to do that, nor trying to erase ANY of the history, what I"m saying to American leftists is simply ... be yourself :P, don't rely on other radical movements to influence your own, the Radical movement here was/is something to be proud of and follow.

Sure theres racsim in America, and apathy, but thats what we have to fight against , theres also anger against the system and a potential for solidarity

[Joby]

For those who would give up easily, I urge yuou not to do so.

The US is the most powerful Empire. Ever.

If YOU are an American, then YOU have more economic and political power than almost any other human being on the face of the earth.

It is OUR responsiblity to stand up to the Empire for no reason if not to see a better world for the billions of impoverished in the future. If you give up and shirk from your responsibility, then you have betrayed the workers of the world. You are just as guilty as the American Capitalists who control much of the world, and are MORE guilty than your peers because you know what is happening, and have given up because of it.

Honestly, who cares if we win. We know we are right, and to know that I'm on that side and pressing for change because I've been given this amazing opportunity is a wonerful feeling. We have an amazing chance -- We ARE the heart of the beast.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

As someone who lives in a poor place in the U.S. (inner city NYC), I can tell you that radical thought and radical movements are long dead.

As someone who also lives " in a poor place in the U.S. (inner city NYC)," I can tell you that they are not.

In the late 70's a poll was done by U.S. Today or a similar bourgeois outfit that found upwards of 70% of Blacks in the U.S. supported the Black Panthers and thought revolution was the only way for them to liberate themselves. That was 30 years ago, and it hasn't all gone away.

We can take a walk in Harlem, the Heights, Flatbush, etc. and talk to people and find they resent this system, that they hate the government and police and that they wanna get free. Malcolm and Fidel are still loved in Harlem, for example.

Resistance is everywhere. We have to embrace, extend and direct it, and foster more resistance; not hide ourselves away and complain about a mythical 'labor aristocracy' that encompasses the whole proletariat.

First we have the fact that the TRUE proletariet are out numbered by the labor aristocracy and the petite bourgeoisie.

That doesn't make sense comrade. By it's very nature, the labor aristocracy cannot outnumber the proletariat. We've been discussing this in the CC (and I'm trying to get that thread moved to this forum, hopefully later today).

"The epoch of imperialism is one in which the world is divided among the “great” privileged nations that oppress all other nations. Morsels of the loot obtained as a result of these privileges and this oppression undoubtedly fall to the share of certain sections of the petty bourgeoisie and to the working-class aristocracy and bureaucracy. These strata, which form an insignificant minority of the proletariat and of the toiling masses, gravitate towards “Struvism”, because it provides them with a justification of their alliance with their “own” national bourgeoisie, against the oppressed masses of all nations." - V.I. Lenin The Collapse of the Second International

There's more, but I don't want to post the same things over and over again. I'll try to create a decisive thread on the question later.

Next we have racism. Poor white guys now hate muslims and latinos more than anyone. I've seen it first hand. I mean there was this poor white lady who lived in my building complaining about all the Latinos moving in our area and that the whole area is now all latino (which is true biggrin.gif ). I, being latino, was offended and I told her off. She was very poor but she had hatred for others in her same financial situation only because of race and ethnicity.

Anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything. I can show an example of higher paid white workers standing against racism, and poor white minors doing the same.

It's in their interests to do that; but bourgeois ideology penetrates. The bourgeois propagates its bullshit through television, radio, newspapers, magazines, etc. (all of which they have a strangle hold on). They divide workers. We have to struggle against all that. That's our job as conscious workers!

Next we have the new political leaders who claim to represent the "poor" (and many of the poor believe them, Al Sharpton, etc). They all depend on the Democrats. It's sick. And the poor don't protest anymore. It seems like the petite bourgeoisie only do protests and their protests are a joke (doing it on weekends when everyone is off, getting permits to do it, having picnics and selling T-Shirts during the protest).

I guess you missed the 40,000 strong protest against the murder of Sean Bell?

Anyway, we need more than protests (but we need them too). But we need to organize! These things don't happen on their own.

There was once a tradition of true protest and radical thinking but it's long dead here. Socialism can succeed in other countries, not in the U.S. Just think it like this, in the U.S. the poor will die for the rich before they die for themselves. It's sad. That's why I do most of my political activity when I go back to Bolivia and Venezuela. I have no faith in the U.S. people and I was born here.

That's a cop out.

"Despair is typical of those who do not understand the causes of evil, see no way out, and are incapable of struggle." -V.I. Lenin

"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all--you live in the heart of the beast." - Ernesto 'Che' Guevara