Anti-libertarianist strategies

[Dimentio]

One of the problems on the internet is that libertarianism, some sort of radical rightist ideology based on idealisation of commerce and misinterpretations of classical liberal philosophers is thriving here. I mean it. Go to a typical forum and you will find at least five libertarians.

Why is libertarianism to existent on the web?

how should it be combatted?

[RedCommieBear]

Originally posted by Serpent+--> (Serpent)Why is libertarianism to existent on the web?[/b]

Hmm.. Well, I think they may have just got here on the internet first, and saw the advantage the web could be before a lot of us did. I mean, how many of us knew about "anarcho-capitalism" without the use of the internet? Without the use of the wikipedia article? Without a reference on this board?

Serpent

how should it be combatted?

Hmm... Interesting question. I think the simplest answer would just be advancing leftism against capitalism.

Edit: Spelling

[Dimentio]

In 9 out of 10 combats between anarcho-capitalists and leftists, the anarcho-cappies tend to win (this is from the confrontations which I have seen). Moreover, libertarianism seems to be more and more accepted by the blue-collar workers, and the main part of it's fellow travellers are just programmers and people working in technical fields, who wrongfully thinks that libertarianism would fulfil their class sentiments.

[YSR]

These people pretty much only exist on the internet (and occasionally in big power think tanks). The ones you run into really don't matter.

[Dimentio]

Yes they do. They have some sort of upper hand of the web, and even though the large mass of people will never accept their ideology they do a great job in whacking leftists. That is demoralising and leads to a retarding of the intellectual process.

[Red October]

Originally posted by Serpent@July 18, 2007 09:03 am
Yes they do. They have some sort of upper hand of the web, and even though the large mass of people will never accept their ideology they do a great job in whacking leftists. That is demoralising and leads to a retarding of the intellectual process.

have you been beaten by them? i have a friend who is a libertarian, mostly because he doesnt want to pay taxes and supports marijuana legalization.

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by Red October+July 18, 2007 04:53 pm--> (Red October @ July 18, 2007 04:53 pm)

Serpent

@July 18, 2007 09:03 am
Yes they do. They have some sort of upper hand of the web, and even though the large mass of people will never accept their ideology they do a great job in whacking leftists. That is demoralising and leads to a retarding of the intellectual process.

have you been beaten by them? i have a friend who is a libertarian, mostly because he doesnt want to pay taxes and supports marijuana legalization. [/b]

No, but in general political forums, rightists tend to get the upper hand over leftists. It is harder to attack technocracy for libertarians since technocracy denounces the basics of their economic ideology.

[Taboo Tongue]

RedStar2000 - The Mind of Capitalist
RS2k - The Manifest Idiocy of Capitalism
RedStar2000 - Conversations with Capitalists
Giving three links to one guy makes me feel like a 1st world Maoist :wacko: ; but you probably know RS2k debating skills better than I do. I find his site helpful for such.

Main thing I would personally point out, is how wonderful the lives of the children of working class (even the higher ranks of it, still know (or should) that they face a lifetime of work and slavery ahead) are in comparison to the Capitalist's children. Neither of which did anything to pick where or to whom they were born.

[Dimentio]

I still think that there might be an idea to build a task force for attacking libertarians on the web. They are the stormtroopers of the right on discussion forums, and since they are coordinating their attacks, they are efficient. It is especially important that younger leftists learn how to debate with them.

[Libber]

Please, when talking about the right-wing flavor, capitalise it thus: Libertarian, because it's a special use. Small-ell libertarianism, as Chomsky has repeatedly pointed out, has a solid 150-200-year history during which it has always meant anarchic socialism. The smoke-dope-don't-pay-taxes sect is both of recent origin and local to the US, and shouldn't be allowed to hijack or colonise a living term.

[Dimentio]

Uh no? In Sweden, it has about one thousand blogs which are inter-linking.

They are marginal, except in one aspect, and that is that they cleverly argument for premises which are shifting the focus for discussion. They have no chance for undertaking their programme, but their purpose is rather to change public opinion and retard the interpretations of society.

[RedKnight]

Why is this in "anti-fascism" instead of "philosophy"? "Libertarians" are the opposite of fascism, in as fascists are authoritarian. Fascists are our mortal enemies. We may kill a fascist. However anarcho-capitalists/classical liberals are only intellectual enemies, no different than any other opposing ideology. In fact Libertarians have a "non-aggression principle". The Libertarian party even has members swear an oath not to initiate force to effect social change. So I do not consider them to be a personal threat to me. They certainly are perferable to the neo-con Right.

[Wanted Man]

Originally posted by RedKnight@July 18, 2007 08:38 pm
Why is this in "anti-fascism" instead of "philosophy"? "Libertarians" are the opposite of fascism, in as fascists are authoritarian. Fascists are our mortal enemies. We may kill a fascist. However anarcho-capitalists/classical liberals are only intellectual enemies, no different than any other opposing ideology. In fact Libertarians have a "non-aggression principle". The Libertarian party even has members swear an oath not to initiate force to effect social change. So I do not consider them to be a personal threat to me. They certainly are perferable to the neo-con Right.

You actually believe their propaganda? Let me remind you of the anarcho-capitalist Hans-Hermann Hoppe, who wrote:

There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertariann social order. They will have to be physically separated and expelled from society. Likewise, in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They - the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism - will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order.

Libertarianism claims to be opposed to both "democracy" and "dictatorship", instead arguing for a "constitutional republic" that should not interfere with corporations at all. This would, in fact, lead to a highly reactionary dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, much moreso than in our current bourgeois democracy. Are Libertarians fascists? I don't know, but the society that they envision is much more dangerous than that of liberal democracy.

The FOK, an anti-fascist research group in the Netherlands, has written extensively on the Libertarian movement in the Netherlands. They also paid attention to the Libertarian participation in the anti-Islam witch hunt of the extreme right, and their ties with fascist groups and Apartheid South Africa. If you are interested, I can translate some of their findings.

As for "strategies" on debating Libertarians on the internet, I would suggest simply avoiding it. Libertarians tend to organize in troll squads in order to outnumber, overwhelm and humiliate you, so it's a pretty pointless endeavour. It's better to reject their values altogether, and argue "past" them. Learn about why their slogans of "freedom" are just that, empty slogans, why their ideas are wrong on every level, and educate those who might fall for them. To do that, start here:

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.T...bertarian.html

[rebel_lord]

Originally posted by Serpent@July 18, 2007 10:51 am
One of the problems on the internet is that libertarianism, some sort of radical rightist ideology based on idealisation of commerce and misinterpretations of classical liberal philosophers is thriving here. I mean it. Go to a typical forum and you will find at least five libertarians.

Why is libertarianism to existent on the web?

how should it be combatted?

:cuba: :redstar:

Hello, haha, you are right, i go to www.gcnlive.com which have a lot of radio shows and political shows who are anti-bush, anti-neocons. but they have a sort of elitist, free-market, bourgeisioe agenda. They never at all talk about the oppressed black people, the opressed immigrants, the oppressed gays, and all the oppressed sectors of USA. Even obese people are opressed in USA. I mean the harsh capitalist system of US and most nations is real hard, it's a Damocles Sword against not only blacks, but also against a lot of other sectors of society. Go to www.freetalklive.com And the guy has a sub-section with pictures of white-elitist girls who send them photos to those guys. They are a sort of Metro-Sexuals wannabee. I even laugh at them, they don't have a scientific understandin of society. I mean how can you not copy from Chavez, from Fidel Castro, from Bolsheviks, and apply it right here in USA. I mean how can people be libertarian. When the right medicine for curing world-poverty is not a crazy passionate idea but socialism h34r:

rebel_lord

[rebel_lord]

Originally posted by Serpent@July 18, 2007 11:41 am
In 9 out of 10 combats between anarcho-capitalists and leftists, the anarcho-cappies tend to win (this is from the confrontations which I have seen). Moreover, libertarianism seems to be more and more accepted by the blue-collar workers, and the main part of it's fellow travellers are just programmers and people working in technical fields, who wrongfully thinks that libertarianism would fulfil their class sentiments.

I laugh at anarcho-capitalism [right wing libertarianism], it is such a utopia. So far no state, government or society has applied any "anarcho capitalist" model, it doesn't work, and if it it is applied it is toiled to fail. We can see the case of Argentina and most latin american nations where neoliberalism destroyed whole nations, and neoliberalism is a related economic ideology to anarcho capitalism. The neoliberalism agenda is the same, a withering of the state welfare services, and shift to privatist sector, it's just a killing of nation's independence, self-determination and local cultures. In fact libertarians preach a message very divorced from libertarianism . Libertarianism can kill nationality, patriotism, and local cultures because of the fact that in a libertarian system. The power of US government would be shifted to IBM, Wal Mart, Mcdonalds. We will have the same big authoritarian bosses but with different uniforms.

So far history and present trend teaches us and showes us that the best ideology to crease poverty levels (PI), and to increase Human development index (HDI) is socialism, not neoliberalism nor libertarianism :-)

rebel_lord

[Dimentio]

Originally posted by Dick Dastardly+July 18, 2007 09:13 pm--> (Dick Dastardly @ July 18, 2007 09:13 pm)

RedKnight

@July 18, 2007 08:38 pm
Why is this in "anti-fascism" instead of "philosophy"? "Libertarians" are the opposite of fascism, in as fascists are authoritarian. Fascists are our mortal enemies. We may kill a fascist. However anarcho-capitalists/classical liberals are only intellectual enemies, no different than any other opposing ideology. In fact Libertarians have a "non-aggression principle". The Libertarian party even has members swear an oath not to initiate force to effect social change. So I do not consider them to be a personal threat to me. They certainly are perferable to the neo-con Right.

You actually believe their propaganda? Let me remind you of the anarcho-capitalist Hans-Hermann Hoppe, who wrote:

There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertariann social order. They will have to be physically separated and expelled from society. Likewise, in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They - the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism - will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order.

Libertarianism claims to be opposed to both "democracy" and "dictatorship", instead arguing for a "constitutional republic" that should not interfere with corporations at all. This would, in fact, lead to a highly reactionary dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, much moreso than in our current bourgeois democracy. Are Libertarians fascists? I don't know, but the society that they envision is much more dangerous than that of liberal democracy.

The FOK, an anti-fascist research group in the Netherlands, has written extensively on the Libertarian movement in the Netherlands. They also paid attention to the Libertarian participation in the anti-Islam witch hunt of the extreme right, and their ties with fascist groups and Apartheid South Africa. If you are interested, I can translate some of their findings.

As for "strategies" on debating Libertarians on the internet, I would suggest simply avoiding it. Libertarians tend to organize in troll squads in order to outnumber, overwhelm and humiliate you, so it's a pretty pointless endeavour. It's better to reject their values altogether, and argue "past" them. Learn about why their slogans of "freedom" are just that, empty slogans, why their ideas are wrong on every level, and educate those who might fall for them. To do that, start here:

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.T...bertarian.html [/b]

Yes, I know about their squading tactics, but I believe that it is possible to out-squad them. The problem is of course that most libertarians by some odd reason appears to be nailed to their computer screens.

As for libertarians contra fascists, they both have the same effects on the working class.

While fascists are luring white-collar workers (lumpen-proles, seasonal workers, unemployed) into their analysis, libertarians are luring blue-collar workers (engineers, technicians, programmers) that their analysis best serves the class interests of that group.

Besides, libertarianism is - in values - close to fascism. To believe in libertarianism, you must believe that you are on a higher ladder than other people, and that those who are affected by accidents, sickness or abuse from their bosses are inferior because they don't manage to cope with the free market system.

Of course, libertarians are even more utopian than the most utopian left-wingers, and the social and technological conditions of their ideal time (the 19th century, when most people where still self-reliant farmers) is not a part of their analysis. But they are a disruptive force on "teh internets".

Therefore, a particular strategy against libertarianism is needed. If we make the mistake to ignore them, they will cause much more harm to the memetic development of ideas on the web.

[RNK]

I see Libertarians as quasi-insane, ultra-right wackos, and I don't pay them any mind. Their refuge is the internet, and I hear 1 out of every 3 has a tin foil hat under his bed...

[Taboo Tongue]

Well if a Anti-Libertarian Front is formed I will join. PM me if any of you form one.

[DeadDisco]

I see them as largely irrelevant when it comes to practical matters (read: insane, naive, and more idealistic than the most idealistic person here.), but it is very unsettling that they can defeat us in debates "9/10" times! Therefore, Anti-Libertarian Front = required. =)

However, I think that they only manage to defeat us in debate when the observers (who are in same cases just more of them >.>,) are too naive to realize that Laissez Faire Capitalism is just too impractical to work. (Not to mention completely hypocritical, as we can pull this quote

There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertariann social order. They will have to be physically separated and expelled from society. Likewise, in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They - the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism - will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order.

out to show that even their own theorists maintain that in order for a libertarian social order to work, it can't really be libertarian at all and is simply fascist!

[midnight marauder]

When ever I meet one in real life, I just throw a few dollars on the ground and make my escape in the ensuing scramble...

Turn every argument with Libertarians into an argument over capitalism. Don't give them any ground. Capitalism isn't an easy thing to defend, and at best, they'll come off as elitist pricks who don't care about the suffering or millions of people that is implicitly required by the Libertarian position.