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Would you say that this argument...
"Fascists don't respect the human rights of others (i.e. ethnic minorities) so why should we respect their human rights?"
...is reasonable justification for kicking the shit out of fascist scumbags, let's say, on an NF march. As some would argue that...
"Kicking the shit out of fascist scumbags is not respecting their human rights and so makes you as bad as they are."
It's something I've been pondering over for a while. I don't believe in an eye for an eye, but in this case I'm not sure. Is it justifiable?
MAKECAPITALISMHISTORY
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.00
It is better to die on you feet than live on you knees.
When you're dealing with fascists, hostory has shown us that the best way to counter hem is to kick them while their numbers are still small, chase them at their meetings, fight them at their protests, find out where they live.
It's not democratic, it's not nice, but it has to be done.
The problem with getting violent with the fash (although morally its justified for the reason you mentioned) is that it puts them on the pedestal so they can say, ''look at those trot thugs beating everyone up, come to us cause we're not the troublemakers!''
yea, it works both ways. Beating the crap out of them can rid them in an area if the numbers are small, but they can use it to their advantage like someone has already said.
In many situations violence is justified and sometimes it may even be necessary, but I don’t like that line of reasoning.
It‘s the sort of argument that right-wingers use to justify the death penalty or the maltreatment of ‘terror suspects‘. Human rights are inalienable and should always be respected. You can’t just take them away when somebody does something wrong.
Simple solution, Ulster Socialist. Wait for them to use violence once, just once, and then come down on them like a ton of bricks. That gets antifa the moral high ground, and avoids the stigma associated with the pre-emptive strike.
The only problem with this, I guess, is that they might not use violence, but that is highly unlikely due to the fact that fascists are by nature thugs.
"If the workers of the world want to win, all they have to do is recognize their own solidarity. They have nothing to do but fold their arms and the world will stop. The workers are more powerful with their hands in their pockets than all the property of the capitalists."
-Joseph Ettor, on the general strike
"I can get up here and shout 'I'm a Communist,' and everybody'll shrug and say 'Aw, he's crazy.' You try doing that on the outside and they'll arrest you. Why, this is the last place in America that's truly free."
-Woody Guthrie, upon being committed to a mental hospital
"When we choose between communism and anarchism we choose between Tweedledum and Tweedledee."
-Me, on the tragedy of leftist splintering
in my view it's simple justice, just look at all the harmfull things fascism has caused the world and different people and how much of it they get away with, just look a normal human morals, not the ones that are instilled in everyone by the modern society, and see what is right or wrong as a human beeing, not a red, left, right, up, under, doesn't matter, just as a normal human beeing, fascism is unacceptable and if it doesn't go away we'll make it go away
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."
You need two to shake hands, but only one to make a fist...
If you don't belive in freedom of speech for everyone Then you don't get it for anyone
Even facist scum have the right to have their moronic beliefs respected.
Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
i don't believe in absolute freedom of speech, and remember that fascists don't use words only to speak their mind
"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."
You need two to shake hands, but only one to make a fist...
No
Fascism is plain and simply wrong. It must be stopped by any means necesary.
No no no. It's a red herring.
Beating the shit out of fascists doesn't make you one. Beating someone up isn't a political ideology. It's a means of enforcing power through a form of force. The state uses force, bosses/corporations use force, etc. etc.
Obviously the goal is to use militant action that is accompanied by conscious awareness of why those participating are using the said tactic. It should also incorporate some sort of tactical and community involvement.
Violence against fascists has to be used wisely, and because some people unfortunately fall into the trap of the thread poster, our justification with scientific and rational reason and intellectual arguments has to be propagated throughout those who could potentially be won over to the antifa side. This means if a newspaper criticizes you, you write in and counter with them. You hold meetings in the area, etc.
And TheDifferenceEngine: Free speech is an abstract concept, and in bourgeois society although it doesn't even exist (unless you have a very warped concept of "free") it is often used as justification for repression, shunning, finger pointing and polarizing.
Neo-Maoist rants: http://marcelthemaoist.blogspot.com The Commie Geek: http://mistax1337.blogspot.com
If you dont give people the opportunity to speak their mind without fear of reprisals, then you have no opportunity to change their minds. Facism is born out of ignorance, and can be easily swayed from their mindset with a few bites of information.
Unless they are raised as facist scum (like prussian blue -shiver) then they'll relent pretty quick in the face of logic.
The really hardcore raised-from-birth motherf***ers will inevitably react with violence at the slightest provocation (i.e protests), giving you free reign to self-defense them as much as you like. (in my opinion theres no such thing as "force appropriate response")
DON'T give up our moral high ground just because you want shits and giggles from beating up some skinheads.
Si Vis Pacem Parabellum
Fascists are generally not very open towards reasoning, they hear a very simple and populistic explanation for problems ('it's the jooos!'and just accept it without thinking. Off course, there are some exceptions, people who are very committed towards fascism and kow what they're talking about, but most are waaaay too far off for reason.
I dont know why you lot say you are anti fascist. You are trying to impose your ideologies on the rest of civilisation by using violence. if that isnt fascism, then I dont know what is.
Fucking red scum
Hey dipshit, we won't be forcing our views on most people beacuse they will be class concious by the time of the revolution. Try reading a bit more instead of masturbating at that picture of Nick Griffin.
I have no interest in changing their minds. I am not interested in appealing to their hearts and minds. I shouldn't have to debate my right to exist with someone either.
I don't need a moral high ground. In fact, I would like to be a low down, dirty, lying, heartless piece of shit, so long as it is helping fight fascism or make some sort of gain for the future proletarian revolution.
Also, you have no proof that your way of appealing to their hearts is more successful. You have no proof that only born fascists can not be reasoned with. You have no proof that they can be "easily swayed".
Even if they could, they can easily do this themselves. There is plenty of material available to them. None of us should have to be the one to risk a beating/stabbing/etc while trying to explain to some bonehead that they are a human.
Also, militant tactics have been proven to work. Any area in North America and the UK (elsewhere as well) with strong militant anti-fascist movements are relatively low in racist and fascist activity. The places (like London, ON) with pacifist anti-racist movements (who work with the cops, funded by the state, etc.) are rife with scum.
You can have the moral high ground, I'l take fash free streets, thank you.
Neo-Maoist rants: http://marcelthemaoist.blogspot.com The Commie Geek: http://mistax1337.blogspot.com
do you really need justification to beat the shit out of nazis there hate filled wankers with no reason
"all wars are civil wars because all men are brothers" Francois Fenelon
Let them have their free speech, they can say whatever they want - but if their speech offends me then my free listening will come into play and I will beat the crap out of them. Their freedom of speech is not limited, they are simply facing the consequences of exercising it in the same way that if I exercised my freedom of movement to stand in the middle of the road doing star jumps a possible consequence is me getting run over.
Sciences & Environment rocks my bedroom.
[FONT=Arial]Say what you mean and say it mean...[/FONT]
"Frankly if we have a revolution and you stop me eating meat, I'm going to eat you."- The inimitable Skinz.
Be careful, lest the time comes where we have to weigh you against a duck.
let's just beat up everybody that disagrees with us
by the end, everyone will agree, right?
*shakes fist threateningly*
RIGHT??
Where is this idea about "beating up" people who "disagree" coming from? That's what they say about us on shitfront. Putting aside the fact that militant techniques aren't necessarily about beatings, we are not talking about "disagreements", we are talking about genocidal maniacs who want to see 90% of the planet's people enslaved! We are talking about the mortal enemy of the working class: fascism and organized racism!
It is odd that Trotskyites, Marxist-Leninists ("Stalinists"), Anarchists, social-democrats, etc. can manage to more or less get along to fight fascism. They have Disagreements... They get into animated debates over beer, once and awhile it might get heated. That's a disagreement. Some fascist racist fuck's opinion on my status as human being is not a "disagreement"; get it?
I'm not sure what point you were trying to make anyways.
Neo-Maoist rants: http://marcelthemaoist.blogspot.com The Commie Geek: http://mistax1337.blogspot.com
