Well whatever, but you won't fnd many parties existing outside of the internet who still hold to cold war ideology
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I think that not only were there and are there so called socialist countries but so called socialist parties, I dont mean the reformists, I mean all the relics of the cold war and marxism, stupid lenin reinactment societies.
I hope they all catch cancer and stop setting working people back in the fight for their rights by years and years.
Well whatever, but you won't fnd many parties existing outside of the internet who still hold to cold war ideology
The observation's obvious, and useless.
There's 5 million groups out there each saying all the others are fake.
So here you come, a group with one member, saying all the others are fake.
What makes you for real? What do you propose, and do, that's better?
I'm not a group of one, I'm just me.
Its simple, there isnt a capitalist party, capitalism doesnt need a party, it just is, if socialism doesnt grow up organically the same way on a personal, cultural and then structural basis it wont ever be.
The cold war ideology I'm talking about is democratic centralism or any other stupid leninist idea.
newsflash: all mainstream parties are capitalist, them in power is what keeps capitalism going.
take away the state and what do you get? instantly a new state by companies protecting their interests. Those in power would be a "party" working for capitalsit interests, whether or not they call themselves such.
ο λαός θα πεί την τελευταία λέξη - αυτές οι νύχτες είναι του αλέξη!
Freedom without equality is privilege - Equality without freedom is a barracks
'Engels, my brother from another class,
we haz got to get fucked up on the grog, and then revolt...if the lessons of the Paris Commune has taught as such, the working class cannot lay hold of the ready made bourgeoisie alcohol, they must smash it, and get pissed on cheap methylated spirits.
holler,
marxy.'
- BCBM=AndreasBaader
Those 'relics' are usually the ones at the forefront of class struggle. How are they setting working-people back when they are actively fighting for workers rights even when the working-class itself doesn't seem to give a damn?
You may disagree with their ideology but give credit where credit is due for the work that they do in trying to raise class-consciousness. And please don't make idiotic remarks about cancer.
When Injustice Becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty.
Oh Lads we have a smart one here lol
Lark most of what you say is bullshit and highlights your inability to learn,its amazing you havent been restricted yet.
what NKOS said
Dipshit,democratic centralism existed quite a long time before the cold war and btw dont talk shit about something you know nothing about historically or theoretically.
"But like Trotskyites working with fascists in the USSR to plant no warning bombs to rip out the lungs of Soviet children from their tiny rib cages you will probably choose to turn a blind eye." - RedSunRising
RIP tech,you will be missed
Marxist Book Resource
I give them no credit at all, class consciousness is party membership to a lot of them.
They dont deserve any credit because they are just self interested and self important rat bastards most of the time who set up fronts or infiltrate popular efforts or strip away democracy from unions like mine.
I think cancer isnt idiotic, it is a disease which kills healthy cells because something has gone wrong and the body identifies the cells as harmful, the relics of the cold war are the same thing, all they've ever done is get Thatcher and Regan elected by working people who hated them.
Maybe you can tell me how social security, pensions, a national health service or any of the other things that reform in the UK has brought about are in the interests of the ruling class or vested business interests? They are taxed to pay for it and it exists as a monopoly with which they cant compete, the banks would love to get a party into power that would abolish those things and if the conservatives had been in power for much longer or if they are elected again they will.
Reform is slow its not pointless and its not exactly the same as rearranging deck chairs on the titanic, although it will be if its not accompanied by culture wars or other sorts of popular struggle.
That just there is called "an appeal to the gallery", in debate terms is a pretty sure indication of authoritarian groupthink.
I'll tell you what I have learned so far, around here agreement seems to go by a lot of names, "rational debate", "learning" etc. etc. but if you disagree you can expect a restriction sooner or later, is that how you conduct yourself in person? How do you ever expect to persuade anyone of anything with such sucky communication skills?
you dont have any friends in real life do you? I bet you're failing in most of your lessons at school too, speak to me when you've matured a little, dont need to react with the insecurity that prompts you to name calling
They arent,they exist because of preasure from the working class,some if not all of which are trying to be done away with by New Labour.
Nah its called sarcasm
Right....you do know this is a site for revolutionary leftists to debate right?
No not really,but if someone is given facts and still churns out bullshit then ya.
Could a mod close this thread it is obvious flamebait.
"But like Trotskyites working with fascists in the USSR to plant no warning bombs to rip out the lungs of Soviet children from their tiny rib cages you will probably choose to turn a blind eye." - RedSunRising
RIP tech,you will be missed
Marxist Book Resource
OK let me get this right, you guys trade sarcasm with each other and membership card numbers while asking the mods to close threads and restrict members?
I can just imagine that the capitalist powers that be must be quaking in their boots as we speak.
Well done.
Well, being a member of a party which seeks to overthrow capitalism through proletarian revolution highlights some degree of class-consciousness.
And if you see a 'Leninist' group in your area or town campaigning on behalf of an important working-class issue, you wouldn't give them credit? I'm no fan of anarchism, yet I still applaud if anarchists win any victories on behalf of the working-class.
Self-interested? Self-important? I spend my saturdays in the town centre trying to raise awareness about low-pay, young workers rights, the Iraq war, unjust water charges etc. all because I'm a selfish 'rat bastard'. When I'm not working or in college, I try to help as much as I can. But after all, we're only doing this because we're all evil dictators in-waiting, aren't we? We fight on behalf of working-class people in the hope that one day we'll seize power and brutally oppress the proletariat.
I don't know what union you're in, but the unions in the UK are very reactionary. Most are controlled by right-wing bureaucrats.
That's called false consciousness. Read some Marx. Working class people aren't stupid. They vote for people like Thatcher and Reagan because they genuinely believe it's in their best interests. Revolutionary organisations are important because they help eradicate that false consciousness and instead create a genuine class consciousness.
Bread and circus? Of course those aren't in the interests of bis business. Many of those benefits were won on the back of working-class struggle. If it is to survive, capitalism realises that it must provide a 'decent' standard of living for working-people, otherwise it would face mass revolt. It's like the Tiger analogy I remember reading about. The Tiger (the working-class) is locked in a cage (wage-slavery/capitalism). Every now and then the Tiger becomes angry, yet it's master (the ruling-classes) throws it the occasional piece of meat (reforms/economic growth) which keeps the Tiger satisfied. However, it is only a matter of time before the Tiger becomes hungry and angry again, and the master will not have food forever. I can't remember where I read that but it always stuck in my mind.
Of course they would, but they can't. The people wouldn't allow it. As I said, the ruling-class must give the working-class some benefits, otherwise there would be widespread revolt.
No they won't. They may allow increasing privatisation, but sure Labour already started us along that road.
I know.
I agree, but only to a certain extent. Although reforms which benefit working people are to be welcomed, we must remember that what capitalism gives with one hand it takes away with the other. If more money is to be spent on the NHS then spending on education must be cut. As I said, reforms should be welcomed, but we should always be pushing for revolution.
When Injustice Becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty.
That statement is just plain laughable and if you knew the slightist thing about leninist theory, the concept of the vanguard party or the bolshevic-menshevic split you would know why. As you don't your just highlighting your ignorance.
Ignoring your childish accusations and slander, what is wrong with setting up fronts, the actually trying to get something done or the willingness to cooperate with others and be nonsectarian?
And improved the lives of millions of people, holding of capitalist imperialism for decades, defeating the Nazi's...
Because they are necessairy to prevent a shift towards more extreme and actually effective measures. What is going to benefit a capitalist more: a welfare state or an armed uprising against them?
I call for a restriction on the grounds this guy is a supporter of an opposing ideology. He's a reformist.
Where were you last Saturday then?
And Lark what group are you active in?
“It is not true that people stop pursuing dreams because they grow old, they grow old because they stop pursuing dreams.” - Gabriel Garcia Marquez
"What forces can bring the national question to a successful conclusion? Only the working class can do so." - Ta Power
i think he's some sort of very very cynical unionist
ο λαός θα πεί την τελευταία λέξη - αυτές οι νύχτες είναι του αλέξη!
Freedom without equality is privilege - Equality without freedom is a barracks
'Engels, my brother from another class,
we haz got to get fucked up on the grog, and then revolt...if the lessons of the Paris Commune has taught as such, the working class cannot lay hold of the ready made bourgeoisie alcohol, they must smash it, and get pissed on cheap methylated spirits.
holler,
marxy.'
- BCBM=AndreasBaader
I don't trust political parties, they are enclaves of opportunism. I think it's more important to construct an independent working class organization that has a revolutionary programme and that implements tactics without seeking the consent of trade union bureaucrats, much like the IWW or CNT.
Look at 'em run, too scared to pull they guns
Outta shape from them coffees and them cinnamon buns
This shit is fun, how I feel when the tables is turned
Dead Prez
the IWW and the CNT are/were in essence political parties, they just didnt call themselves that. Any group seeking to influence, destroy/replace, or take over the political system is a political party.
What you're referring to are just bureaucratic political parties, or parties influenced by bureaucrats/which have bureaucratic tendencies.
ο λαός θα πεί την τελευταία λέξη - αυτές οι νύχτες είναι του αλέξη!
Freedom without equality is privilege - Equality without freedom is a barracks
'Engels, my brother from another class,
we haz got to get fucked up on the grog, and then revolt...if the lessons of the Paris Commune has taught as such, the working class cannot lay hold of the ready made bourgeoisie alcohol, they must smash it, and get pissed on cheap methylated spirits.
holler,
marxy.'
- BCBM=AndreasBaader
Working. Some of us are members of the proletariat ya know.Originally posted by Permanent Revolution@May 30, 2007 08:29 pm
Where were you last Saturday then?
And Lark what group are you active in?
When Injustice Becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty.
Counter-revolutionary scum.Originally posted by Makaveli+May 30, 2007 10:48 pm--> (Makaveli @ May 30, 2007 10:48 pm)Working. Some of us are members of the proletariat ya know.@May 30, 2007 08:29 pm
Where were you last Saturday then?
And Lark what group are you active in?
“It is not true that people stop pursuing dreams because they grow old, they grow old because they stop pursuing dreams.” - Gabriel Garcia Marquez
"What forces can bring the national question to a successful conclusion? Only the working class can do so." - Ta Power
Pushing for change in the economic sphere does not necessarily make one a political party. Certain members of the IWW and various other trade unions may have a political agenda but the organization remains neutral politically and thus doesn't constitute a political party.
