Question to Irish left Pacifist's

[redflag32]

Why do some leftists reject Imperialism in palestine or Iraq but ignore British Imperialism that has survived in Ireland for 800 years? I find it hard to understand why Irish socialists can speak out about Imperialism in Cuba's history or Palestine but are silent when it comes to the occupied 6 counties. Is this that they are afraid of upsetting the protestant workers who see anti-imperialism in Ireland as pro-sectarianism or is it that they accept the Unionist veto?

[Redmau5]

Originally posted by redflag32@May 27, 2007 01:41 pm
Why do some leftists reject Imperialism in palestine or Iraq but ignore British Imperialism that has survived in Ireland for 800 years? I find it hard to understand why Irish socialists can speak out about Imperialism in Cuba's history or Palestine but are silent when it comes to the occupied 6 counties. Is this that they are afraid of upsetting the protestant workers who see anti-imperialism in Ireland as pro-sectarianism or is it that they accept the Unionist veto?

How is it possible to be a socialist and ignore imperialism in Ireland? Although there are many different kinds of socialists in Ireland who believe in different methods of removing the British presense, all agree that partition was a anti-democratic and criminal act.

[Coggeh]

Originally posted by redflag32@May 27, 2007 01:41 pm
Why do some leftists reject Imperialism in palestine or Iraq but ignore British Imperialism that has survived in Ireland for 800 years? I find it hard to understand why Irish socialists can speak out about Imperialism in Cuba's history or Palestine but are silent when it comes to the occupied 6 counties. Is this that they are afraid of upsetting the protestant workers who see anti-imperialism in Ireland as pro-sectarianism or is it that they accept the Unionist veto?

We don't call out publicly for the removal of the brits because we organise up the north and have a strong prodestant base and pretty much don't want to upset it .We believe in removing the brits when theirs a unity of the workers and all (or most) can see that its better for the working class prodestant or catholic .

[redflag32]

Originally posted by Coggy+May 27, 2007 03:24 pm--> (Coggy @ May 27, 2007 03:24 pm)

redflag32

@May 27, 2007 01:41 pm
Why do some leftists reject Imperialism in palestine or Iraq but ignore British Imperialism that has survived in Ireland for 800 years? I find it hard to understand why Irish socialists can speak out about Imperialism in Cuba's history or Palestine but are silent when it comes to the occupied 6 counties. Is this that they are afraid of upsetting the protestant workers who see anti-imperialism in Ireland as pro-sectarianism or is it that they accept the Unionist veto?

We don't call out publicly for the removal of the brits because we organise up the north and have a strong prodestant base and pretty much don't want to upset it .We believe in removing the brits when theirs a unity of the workers and all (or most) can see that its better for the working class prodestant or catholic . [/b]

Isnt that unprincipled though? I dont see the advantage of trying to fool the protestant people into believeing you dont want a united ireland. Its what Connolly called gas and water socialist's.

[Coggeh]

we want a socialist ireland first , and for that we need the workers support of all backgrounds . Once we have it ,it will fast become apparent that a united ireland is better for the working class as a whole .

[redflag32]

Originally posted by Coggy@May 27, 2007 03:33 pm
we want a socialist ireland first , and for that we need the workers support of all backgrounds . Once we have it ,it will fast become apparent that a united ireland is better for the working class as a whole .

But you cant have a socialist Ireland before you tackle Iperialism,it just isnt possible,so eventually your position will have to be principled,why delay that untill the very end? You can have a principled unity with protetant workers,even unionists on things that affect us both,but i dont see the need to shy away from our anti-imperialist ideals.

It would be impossible to achieve a socialist country first because of the border,it represents the division of the workers andit has to be smashed. Im not saying we should ignore the protestant or unionst working class,but i do think we should be honest in our approach to them.

[Cheung Mo]

All socialists are republican? I thought there were avowed Marxists in the PUP (although theirs would be the most nonsensical bastardisation of Marx since the old SACP's White Workers of the World Unite.).

[bolshevik butcher]

I think that Irish socialists must be prepaired to call for the removal of British imperialist forces from Ireland, and its partition. However they must also make the call for a united Ireland on a socialist basis, it seems the only way to unite the working class and beyond this provide any real solution to the problems of the Irish working class.

[The Grey Blur]

We aren't pacifists you idiot, we take a principled Marxist position which is that we disagree with individual terrorism. We supported the setting up of cross-community worker's militias to oppose the British troops, and when this became unrealistic we still supported the right to self-defence for under-siege Catholic areas.

We don't ignore British Imperialism in Ireland since we were some of the first to call for the withdrawal of troops when they first arrived in the late 60s. But today, such a slogan would be pointless as the British ruling class wants out of Northern Ireland, which is simply a huge drain on their resources.

We believe on uniting the workers on common issues while promoting Socialism as the only means forward. This is not "gas-and-waterworks" Socialism, this is based on the Transitional Program of putting forward transitional, realistic, demands while linking these with a wider anti-capitalist perspective. It appears you are the one ignoring Connolly - a united capitalist Ireland will mean nothing but a different coloured flag. Sectarianism won't disappear overnight.

Personally I disagree with the IRSP on a number of issues but at least I don't start threads attacking them falsely.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

I think that there are protestant socialists (the PUP, as much as i believe that they're the only unionist party who've made any sense over the last 10 years, don't really count) who are wary of bringing up the issue of British imperialism especially if they've been brought up in a staunchly unionist environment. Unless they analyse the situation (I'm talking particularly about young socialist who don't have the experience yet to have fully fledged ideas) they will also be uneasy about calling for a United Ireland because they have been brought up accepting British rule as a good thing.

[redflag32]

Originally posted by Permanent Revolution@May 27, 2007 04:46 pm
We aren't pacifists you idiot, we take a principled Marxist position which is that we disagree with individual terrorism. We supported the setting up of cross-community worker's militias to oppose the British troops, and when this became unrealistic we still supported the right to self-defence for under-siege Catholic areas.

We don't ignore British Imperialism in Ireland since we were some of the first to call for the withdrawal of troops when they first arrived in the late 60s. But today, such a slogan would be pointless as the British ruling class wants out of Northern Ireland, which is simply a huge drain on their resources.

We believe on uniting the workers on common issues while promoting Socialism as the only means forward. This is not "gas-and-waterworks" Socialism, this is based on the Transitional Program of putting forward transitional, realistic, demands while linking these with a wider anti-capitalist perspective. It appears you are the one ignoring Connolly - a united capitalist Ireland will mean nothing but a different coloured flag. Sectarianism won't disappear overnight.

Personally I disagree with the IRSP on a number of issues but at least I don't start threads attacking them falsely.

What on earth are you on about,im not a member of the IRSP and this wasnt an attack on whatever political party you assocate with. I think its a bit childish for you to answer my question with a personal insult. Im not an idiot thank you very much,just interested in hearing others views and opinions,if you cant handle this then dont speak with me.

[The Grey Blur]

However did I make that mistake? (Seeing as you have an IRSP board in your sig, an IRSP member's quote on your profile, your Bebo is full of IRSP images and nearly every thread you post in involves the IRSP in some shape or form... )

Sorry if I appeared defensive, I'm just sick of this crap (which in my experience only seems to exist on message boards) that anyone who believes that the Protestant working-class can be won to Socialism is an apologist for Imperialism, or a pacifist, or a gas-and-waterworks socialist.

[redflag32]

Originally posted by Permanent Revolution@May 27, 2007 06:24 pm
However did I make that mistake? (Seeing as you have an IRSP board in your sig, an IRSP member's quote on your profile, your Bebo is full of IRSP images and nearly every thread you post in involves the IRSP in some shape or form... )

Sorry if I appeared defensive, I'm just sick of this crap (which in my experience only seems to exist on message boards) that anyone who believes that the Protestant working-class can be won to Socialism is an apologist for Imperialism, or a pacifist, or a gas-and-waterworks socialist.

That sig is of the starry plough initiative which is non-aligned and has members from all sections of the republican socialist tradition. I am a republican socialist,the IRSP have been pushing this brand of Republicansim for years,it would be a bit weird if i didnt have IRSP related material or people associated with my online activities.

I do believe the protestant working class can be won to socialism,i just dont think the way to do it is to not talk about th border. Thats my personal view,i wasnt having a go at you or your party.

[Brady]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty Christ@May 27, 2007 05:07 pm
I think that there are protestant socialists (the PUP, as much as i believe that they're the only unionist party who've made any sense over the last 10 years, don't really count) who are wary of bringing up the issue of British imperialism especially if they've been brought up in a staunchly unionist environment. Unless they analyse the situation (I'm talking particularly about young socialist who don't have the experience yet to have fully fledged ideas) they will also be uneasy about calling for a United Ireland because they have been brought up accepting British rule as a good thing.

This is just about spot on. I am a Protestant who wants a 32 county socialist republic, yet when I speak of my political views to people I know I stop short of attacking the British presence and the border. My dad is a bit left of centre and might understand but none of the rest would. Does this make me a coward and a hypocrite? Probably, but nobody wants to be shunned by their family and friends and this is a very sensitive issue. Hopefully it will all come out in good time.

In my opinion a united Ireland is the easy part. Its inevitable. Socialism on the other hand is the big problem, especially while the South continue to gloat about their 'booming celtic tiger economy'. God am I sick of hearing that phrase...

[redflag32]

Originally posted by Brady+May 27, 2007 07:42 pm--> (Brady @ May 27, 2007 07:42 pm)

Sir Aunty Christ

@May 27, 2007 05:07 pm
I think that there are protestant socialists (the PUP, as much as i believe that they're the only unionist party who've made any sense over the last 10 years, don't really count) who are wary of bringing up the issue of British imperialism especially if they've been brought up in a staunchly unionist environment. Unless they analyse the situation (I'm talking particularly about young socialist who don't have the experience yet to have fully fledged ideas) they will also be uneasy about calling for a United Ireland because they have been brought up accepting British rule as a good thing.

This is just about spot on. I am a Protestant who wants a 32 county socialist republic, yet when I speak of my political views to people I know I stop short of attacking the British presence and the border. My dad is a bit left of centre and might understand but none of the rest would. Does this make me a coward and a hypocrite? Probably, but nobody wants to be shunned by their family and friends and this is a very sensitive issue. Hopefully it will all come out in good time.

In my opinion a united Ireland is the easy part. Its inevitable. Socialism on the other hand is the big problem, especially while the South continue to gloat about their 'booming celtic tiger economy'. God am I sick of hearing that phrase... [/b]

Its very brave of you to hold those views if you live in a loyalist area mate,fair play to ye, your spot on about the celtic tiger phraze,what a sham. All it is is foriegn investment,when they realize they can get it done cheaper elsewhere they will all leave.

I dont want to sound as though i dont think the protestant people should be brought into the struggle for socialism in Ireland,i even set up a small forum once to try and draw revolutionary protestants in for debate,but it failed drastically.Its just my opinion that to approach them without mentioning imperialism and its effects on workng class unity would do them a greater diservice than anything.

This post was to find out from those who think its best not to bring up the issue of the border, why they favour this tactic. Its not ment to be confrontational,im just curious.

[sexyguy]

The Brits could not defeat the republican nationalists. The Brits had to negotiate. This is the result. ”Make it look like the IRA didn't win”. They did. Now the revolutionary communists can stop moaning from their own ’peaceful coexistence’ compromises about being marginalized by nationalism and get on with the class struggle.

[redflag32]

Originally posted by sexyguy@May 28, 2007 12:16 am
The Brits could not defeat the republican nationalists. The Brits had to negotiate. This is the result. ”Make it look like the IRA didn't win”. They did. Now the revolutionary communists can stop moaning from their own ’peaceful coexistence’ compromises about being marginalized by nationalism and get on with the class struggle.

How did the IRA win exactly? Teir objective of getting the British out of Ireland failed. The PSF strategy has secured the union with Britian,taken away political status for prisoners which basically is the legetimacy for the irsh struggle and also put a rascist bigot into power (paisley). Socialists are back to square one,sectarianims is as rife as when it was at the begining of the troubles and the union still exsists. Untill imperialism is smashed we can never have a unity of workers in Ireland.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

We use the words "Protestant" and "Catholic" too much in Ireland. In my last post I was drawing from my own experience but I don't consider myself a protestent; I'm an atheist who just happens to have a Protestant family background. Even that's misleading as - with the exception of my Grandmother on my mum's side - none of my Grandparents are churchgoers, my Dad was born again but but died again when he was a teenager and my Mum only continued going to church (taking me with her) until I was 3 years old because she didn't want a row with my Granny. It's more correct to say that I have a unionist family background.

The words "Protestant" and "Catholic" are only labels we use to distinguish "us" from "them". It&#39;s like the old joke ( <_< ) where two boys are walking home from school, one tells the other he&#39;s a Jew and the other says "Yeah but are you a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?"

On the other hand, you can&#39;t ignore the Protestant/Catholic issue. James Craig said that Northern Ireland was "A Protestant state for a Protestant people" (that&#39;s a misquote but a snappy one) so class consciousness needs to be raised in the Protestant working class before anything can happen. If this happens then they will see the lunacy of the existence of the border. The problem is not so much with the British but with the unionist minority on the island who couldn&#39;t accept the Dominion status that was offered several times until 1921. If that had occurred then probably events would have panned out the way they did (Irish independance in 1949) but with the six counties as part of a united Ireland. It would have been imperfect but at least there&#39;d be a basis for working class unity.

[Sir Aunty Christ]

...I even set up a small forum once to try and draw revolutionary protestants in for debate,but it failed drastically.

What did happen to those forums. The last one seems to have gone offline.

[redflag32]

Originally posted by Sir Aunty Christ@May 28, 2007 11:25 am

...I even set up a small forum once to try and draw revolutionary protestants in for debate,but it failed drastically.

What did happen to those forums. The last one seems to have gone offline.

The CCWDf (cross community working class debate forum) was a very basic and small forum but it had the best intentions,it drew in id say one or two socialist "protestants" (i understand your above post,i hate using these terms myself) It got attacked by loyalists and basically wasnt getting any traffic or debate of the kind we wanted so we pulled it. The forum im admin on at the moment is a republican socialist one but we try to encourage "protestant" socialists there,we know republican socialism is not religious based and that many leading republicans were protestant but its hard to draw people from that tradition into the forum.we have a section in the education part of the forum dedicated to ulster scots tradition,we see this culture as equal to the irish one and hopefull with this acceptence we may get some "protesant" socialst posters,even if they dont agree with us.