Thread: At least 34 dead in violence...Karachi (Pakistan)

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  1. #41
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    Spirit of Spartacus, I would really like to know how you think the rotten pakistani bourgiosie will be able to show a way forward, break their ties with international capital and so on.
    What are your thoughts on the issue and why do you think the old menshevic 2 stage theory should be applied to Pakistan?
    I really like to know since I can't understand what kind of logic would be behind such reasoning.
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  2. #42
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    Well I am not a Pakistani but I will try to answer you Teis.

    The political situation in Pakistan is not as clear cut as we think. For now the workers movement have to deal not only with the Imperialist colloborator Musharraff but also with the another spectrum the Islamic fundamentalism. For now the tactic is to ally with the secular bourgeosise parties like PPP etc to tackle with the extreme enemies.

    Originally posted by "Teis"
    At best such a strategy would "only" lead to the disillousionment of worker cadres, and worst in would result in a bloodbath as happened with the movement in Pakistan earlier
    That is soem what defeatist IMO. After the world is not going to end with the fall of Musharraff regime. The workers and peasants still have deal with the PPP and the Imperialist yoke. But we cannot accomplish everything in one Jump.
    It is possible to build gigantic factories according to a ready-made Western pattern by bureaucratic command – although, to be sure, at triple the normal cost. But the farther you go, the more the economy runs into the problem of quality, which slips out of the hands of a bureaucracy like a shadow. The Soviet products are as though branded with the gray label of indifference. Under a nationalized economy, quality demands a democracy of producers and consumers, freedom of criticism and initiative – conditions incompatible with a totalitarian regime of fear, lies and flattery.
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  3. #43
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    Well I get what you say but I think you overlook some things. Of course the fall of the Musharaf regime is a step forward, but in my oppinion the question is also what line we should put forward.
    PPP has a massbase among workers, peasants and youth, especially course of their history. But that shouldn't mean we should put forward any illusions in the leaders of the PPP, as I see it that's what Spirit Of Spartacus does when he calls for them to take leadership, it's clear their leadership would just mean a repetition of past mistakes.
    Instead the point must be to win these people for socialist ideas as I think The Struggle are doing and have been doing for a long time. I also think that is why they have build the biggest and important socialist organisation in Pakistan ever (but of course they are my comrades so you probably won't agree ).
    Anyway following the 2 stage theory would mean to stop the fight after the overthrow of Musharaf and wait for some mythological bourgiosie to build up Pakistan, to hold such view is utopian in my oppinion. And furthermore that view totally fails to look at what role a weak bourgiosie like the pakistani can actually play.
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  4. #44
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    Originally posted by "Teis"
    But that shouldn't mean we should put forward any illusions in the leaders of the PPP, as I see it that's what Spirit Of Spartacus does when he calls for them to take leadership, it's clear their leadership would just mean a repetition of past mistakes.
    I don't think he meant explicitly that. He said that the worker's movement is not strong to capture power itself.

    The main factor the worker's movement should do aftre the fall of Musharraff regime replaced by PPP(hopefully) is not to give unconditional support to it. The real struggle starts only after that. If the worker's movement fail at that juncture to defend the rights of Workers and Peasants then the Islamic Fundamentalists would fill that role.

    But it is still a long way IMO. We have to wait and see.
    It is possible to build gigantic factories according to a ready-made Western pattern by bureaucratic command – although, to be sure, at triple the normal cost. But the farther you go, the more the economy runs into the problem of quality, which slips out of the hands of a bureaucracy like a shadow. The Soviet products are as though branded with the gray label of indifference. Under a nationalized economy, quality demands a democracy of producers and consumers, freedom of criticism and initiative – conditions incompatible with a totalitarian regime of fear, lies and flattery.
    -Trotsky
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  5. #45
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    I will respond to Teis in detail tomorrow, but for the moment, I have a headache and can't think very clearly at the moment.
    Today, I'll just say that g.ram is pretty much on the right track.

    There have been some changes in the US tone and position regarding the developments in Pakistan. Looks like they're a bit worried about their foremost ally in their imperialist wars in this region.

    The US Assistant Secretary of State, Richard Boucher, visited Pakistan over the past few days.
    I leave the comrades with the following reports on the US position on Pakistan's rapidly changing political situation:

    The US calls for Musharraf to get re-elected as President by a new parliament after elections this year, instead of the current assemblies (which are dominated by Musharraf's hired goons in the political party PML-Q).

    BBC's analysis of the change in US posture and tone towards the Musharraf regime.


    American newspapers call on the Bush regime to change its policies towards Pakistan, fearing that they might lose their subservient ally:

    More US newspapers question Musharraf’s legitimacy


    By Khalid Hasan, for the Daily Times, Pakistan

    WASHINGTON: Two more American newspapers have urged the US government to modify its policy towards Pakistan’s current government and make course corrections to attune itself to the democratic upsurge now in full swing in the country.

    The San Francisco Chronicle, an important and respected West Coast newspaper, writes in an editorial that Washington should ask itself how indispensable General Pervez Mushrraf is.

    For years, it writes, he has sold himself on the threat that without him Pakistan would descend into an Iran-style Islamic theocracy, exporting trouble and waving nuclear weaponry. “But it may be time to call his bluff. Never a friend of civil law, he has overstepped himself by firing the country’s chief justice and briefly yanking press freedom for the broadcast media. He’s also planning for a fall vote by a lame-duck parliament on another five-year term as president while keeping his uniform as head of the military. In plain terms, his public image has taken a huge beating,” the editorial points out.

    The Bush administration, the newspaper admits, will not publicly disparage an ally who has collected some $10 billion in US aid. Gen Musharraf maintains he has done all he can to hunt down Al Qaeda terrorists, who are dug in along the Pak-Afghan border. Pakistan has never been a steady democracy, and Musharraf is a “known quantity,” Washington strategists argue. “His appeal, however, is growing stale. And the proof is largely of his creation. By firing the nation’s top judge, he inflamed protests that brought thousands of lawyers, business groups and political organisations into the streets. The press crackdown had the same effect: pro-democracy groups were galvanised, not the Islamic fundamentalists he has cited as trouble… His rule may bend, or break, soon. He’s negotiating with former leader Benazir Bhutto to allow her return from exile and to possibly share power as prime minister. That could be an improvement, though it would leave Pakistan’s all-powerful military in the picture, with Musharraf as its top general. An opportunity is at hand to dilute his autocratic control. Washington should shoulder him hard in the direction of democracy and civil law. Such a change won’t happen overnight, but Musharraf’s weakened position is a chance that can’t be missed,” according to the San Francisco Chronicle.

    Another newspaper, The Oklahoman, writes in an editorial that the United States faces tough choices in Pakistan, where “key terror ally” President Pervez Musharraf is up against the most serious challenge to his rule since seizing power in 1999. He would like a “friendly parliament” to re-nominate him as president and allow him to keep his army post. It’s uncertain what will happen if he does not get his wish. “Pakistan is being roiled by internal and external forces. Musharraf’s post-9/11 ties to the United States, a resurgent Taliban in Afghanistan and the likelihood that Al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden is hiding in the border region between Pakistan and Afghanistan have helped foment domestic unrest … It’s an uncomfortable situation for the United States — Musharraf is an ally against Al Qaeda, but authoritarian governments have a limited shelf life and often end badly.” The newspaper makes the point that the “United States can’t champion democracy and block its results.””

    Meanwhile, in yet another interview, this time to the Los Angeles Times, Benazir Bhutto has said she is going to return to Pakistan. “This year, I will be back. I don’t know what will happen when I return - prison perhaps, but I will face whatever comes,” she added.

    Bhutto is widely viewed as the most viable alternative, while some see her as “hero and national savior, others remember her corruption-tainted tenure with anger and disgust.” She told the newspaper, “I have many enemies - I’m a security target,” Bhutto acknowledged. “But this is a most critical time for the country.” When asked about her husband’s alleged corruption, she defended him, contending that the charges against both of them were baseless and politically motivated.

    According to the report in her negotiations with General Musharraf, “from her side, the key condition was the dropping of corruption charges pending against her, a condition that Musharraf would have been in a position to easily grant. She, in turn, would lend legitimacy to his presidency, while taking the premiership for herself.” However, the May 12 killings in Karachi have made it difficult for her to have a deal with Musharraf as it “would cause an angry backlash within the party’s ranks.” Stephen Cohen, head of South Asia at Brookings, told the newspaper, “She made terrible mistakes in office, but most leaders do. But she’s always been seen as the country’s only coherent political force, other than the army.”

    Bhutto said she believed that if the elections were free and fair, held without systematic intimidation and violence, her party would prevail.
    "Yes, the brutalities of progress are called revolutions. When they are over, this fact is recognized---that the human race has been treated harshly, but it has progressed."
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  6. #46
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    Good, another corrupt degenerate outpost of imperialism under threat. Let them turn on each other and expose their weaknesses. This will encourage proletarian revolutionary struggle more than all the ’programs’ of ’left’ pessimism.
    "In (Lenin's Theses on the National and Colonial Questions) there were political terms that were difficult to understand. But by reading them again and again finally I was able to grasp the essential part. What emotion, enthusiasm, enlightenment and confidence they communicated to me! I wept for joy. Sitting by myself in my room, I would shout as if I were addressing large crowds: "Dear martyr compatriots! This is what we need, this is our path to liberation!" Since then (the 1920s) I had entire confidence in Lenin, in the Third International!" Ho Chi Minh.
  7. #47
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    Spirit of Spartacus, I would really like to know how you think the rotten pakistani bourgiosie will be able to show a way forward, break their ties with international capital and so on.
    They can't, really. They can't break their ties to international capital, but currently, they are in contradiction with the military establishment.

    The military is the most subservient to US imperialism, more so than even the bourgeois liberals.

    The Pakistani military is not merely a reactionary instrument of the state. It has a stranglehold over vital sectors of the Pakistani economy.

    The only reason we're supporting the bourgeois-democratic movement is that the rank-and-file of that movement is genuinely opposed to the military, even if the leaders themselves are bastards who could sell out at any moment.


    What are your thoughts on the issue and why do you think the old menshevic 2 stage theory should be applied to Pakistan?
    I really like to know since I can't understand what kind of logic would be behind such reasoning.
    You are absolutely correct, comrade, it shouldn't.
    And I don't think we're even trying to apply a Menshevik stage theory to Pakistan.

    The communists here are working along two fronts. The first is our effort to build up working-class and peasant organizations, to further the revolutionary cause. Some successes have already been achieved here, and there is still a lot left to be done.

    At the same time, the petit-bourgeoisie and some elements of the bourgeoisie have launched a movement against the pro-imperialist military and its stooges.
    The bourgeoisie itself is split, you see.

    Therefore, we support this movement, knowing that it is in the objective class interests of the working-class to oppose the military junta and its goons.

    Personally, I know that the bourgeois leaders can sell out at any moment. But really, what can we do?

    You tell me, Teis.

    The working-class is still in the process of organizing itself. The recent wave of privatizations has left them weakened. Communist activists have been persecuted for most of Pakistan's history, and it is only now that they are able to operate relatively more easily than before. It will take time before we can bring the working people out in a solid mass to oppose the military.

    The course of action that we are following is not one that we chose out of free will. These are the conditions that history has handed out to us in Pakistan.
    Our support for the bourgeois parties is only a temporary necessity in the struggle against the military, not a long-term policy.

    And by the way, think of it this way:

    The military is tied to international finance capital, and so is the bourgeois leadership.
    But if the bourgeois leaders succeed in ousting the military junta, they will set up a liberal parliamentary system.

    That means that US imperialism will have to negotiate with several rival groups among the bourgeoisie of Pakistan. It will be much harder for one small group of generals to push us into various Yankee-led wars of aggression.

    That can only help the communist cause, as it will give us an additional forum to use for propaganda efforts. It will allow us to merge legal and illegal means of struggle.

    But once again, I repeat that we're not exactly happy about the fact that the anti-military movement is dominated by the bourgeois parties and petit-bourgeois lawyers' associations.
    "Yes, the brutalities of progress are called revolutions. When they are over, this fact is recognized---that the human race has been treated harshly, but it has progressed."
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  8. #48
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    Thanks for the reply, and the effort.

    Am not gonna add much just that I think it's quite wrong to give illusions in the bourgios parties. We should always keep the goal in sight - socialism.
    I think Pakistan is ripe for socialism, hell all of the subcontinent are. What's lacking is leadership as I see it.
    The tradeunions in Pakistan are under much attack I know and the consequenses of privatisation is horrible.
    As I see it these struggles must be turned from defensive towards offensive struggles, like the PTUDC are doing.
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  9. #49
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    Thanks for the reply, and the effort.

    Am not gonna add much just that I think it's quite wrong to give illusions in the bourgios parties. We should always keep the goal in sight - socialism.
    Oh absolutely. I never disputed that.

    I think Pakistan is ripe for socialism, hell all of the subcontinent are. What's lacking is leadership as I see it.
    Actually, I often say that Pakistan is like a textbook model for a state ruled by a ruling-class which is totally COMPLETELY subservient to the interests of Imperialism.

    And their economic policy is fast becoming a textbook case for neo-liberalism in the Third World.

    The tradeunions in Pakistan are under much attack I know and the consequenses of privatisation is horrible.
    As I see it these struggles must be turned from defensive towards offensive struggles, like the PTUDC are doing.
    I was under the impression that the PTUDC also supports the lawyers' movement, and (by extension) the bourgeois opposition...at least in this current crisis.

    Do correct me if I'm wrong.
    "Yes, the brutalities of progress are called revolutions. When they are over, this fact is recognized---that the human race has been treated harshly, but it has progressed."
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  10. #50
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    Actually, I often say that Pakistan is like a textbook model for a state ruled by a ruling-class which is totally COMPLETELY subservient to the interests of Imperialism.
    So we agree.
    In my oppinion the theory of Permanent Revolution fits Pakistan perfectly.

    I was under the impression that the PTUDC also supports the lawyers' movement, and (by extension) the bourgeois opposition...at least in this current crisis.

    Do correct me if I'm wrong.
    They do of course, MP Manzour Ahmed is by trade a lawyer as far as I remember, and there is of course others.
    I dunno what ur guys slogans are, but PTUDC and the Struggle are clearly putting forward socialism, and thats the way to go I think. In some ways Pakistan can even be compared to Russia before the revolution.
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