This Pirate Somehow missed the Boat

[JayFitz]

Um, so, perhaps an apology. . .but give me a second.

Let's first say that I grew up in the state of Idaho in the US. I was a juv. justice councilor there and knew the skin heads, militants, etc. first hand.

Let me say first off those kids aren't racists, though they think they are--they're merely super super ignorant screwups. Poor, ignorant, sometimes nut cases. Frankly, because I those people first hand, I pity and feel empathy for them more than anything. They have more in common with most of us than you think, frankly.

That being said, uh, how to we define fascism?

Well, I'd define that in it's classic sense. Nationalistic Socialism.

What are the goals of Nationalistic Socialism? To use often religious, patriotic symbolism to motivate the masses to socialize the costs of business, but privatize the profits of the ruling elite. I don't personally see the forces of facism in the Klan or any of the other kook organizations--I see Fascism embodied in Wal-mart.

Modern Fascism is very sophisticated. It isn't goosestepping anymore, but the goosestepping attitude can still be seen. You goosestep through life. Get a job, work for a major cooperation, goosestep along for them. Indebt the hell out of yourself, buy a super over priced house, goosestep along for the bank. Raise the 2.5 kids, but be sure you keep in hock to do it--as this is really the key to keeping the masses in line. Can you believe 28 percent interest is legal? It's a vastly more effective way of keeping people under control than guns!

So, hence my piracy posts. I know full well the impact one faces once one steps outside that approved boundaries of lifestyle--the most dangerous thing to fascism is to show other values other ways to live that are benevolent and effective.

I worry that progressives loose sight of the big picture by taking on the small issues again and again and again. . .

We need to realize that the skinhead and the E. LA black gang member have much much more in common than not. They have the same gripe, and it's fair. Modern fascisms power is in keeping them isolated from each other--and frankly we from them.

[Sand Castle]

Originally posted by JayFitz@April 30, 2007 01:28 am
Um, so, perhaps an apology. . .but give me a second.

Let's first say that I grew up in the state of Idaho in the US. I was a juv. justice councilor there and knew the skin heads, militants, etc. first hand.

Let me say first off those kids aren't racists, though they think they are--they're merely super super ignorant screwups. Poor, ignorant, sometimes nut cases. Frankly, because I those people first hand, I pity and feel empathy for them more than anything. They have more in common with most of us than you think, frankly.

That being said, uh, how to we define fascism?

Well, I'd define that in it's classic sense. Nationalistic Socialism.

What are the goals of Nationalistic Socialism? To use often religious, patriotic symbolism to motivate the masses to socialize the costs of business, but privatize the profits of the ruling elite. I don't personally see the forces of facism in the Klan or any of the other kook organizations--I see Fascism embodied in Wal-mart.

Modern Fascism is very sophisticated. It isn't goosestepping anymore, but the goosestepping attitude can still be seen. You goosestep through life. Get a job, work for a major cooperation, goosestep along for them. Indebt the hell out of yourself, buy a super over priced house, goosestep along for the bank. Raise the 2.5 kids, but be sure you keep in hock to do it--as this is really the key to keeping the masses in line. Can you believe 28 percent interest is legal? It's a vastly more effective way of keeping people under control than guns!

So, hence my piracy posts. I know full well the impact one faces once one steps outside that approved boundaries of lifestyle--the most dangerous thing to fascism is to show other values other ways to live that are benevolent and effective.

I worry that progressives loose sight of the big picture by taking on the small issues again and again and again. . .

We need to realize that the skinhead and the E. LA black gang member have much much more in common than not. They have the same gripe, and it's fair. Modern fascisms power is in keeping them isolated from each other--and frankly we from them.

The things in bold are so true, or at least from what I have also experienced.

[An archist]

What you have said, I can agree with mostly, but
The problem with neo-nazi skinheads is that they will fight the left when they are asked to and the fact that they have guns.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

I think that there are parallels within all violent, xenophobic subclutures, and the biggest irony is that they still hate each other.

[JayFitz]

Glad to hear some agreement. Unfortunately to my mind too much attention is payed to fringe and personal issues. All revolutionary movements if they are going to be truely revolutionary, are going to be movements of humanity, not just another faction. . .and that other faction may include some of us who call ourselves "communists" or "anarchists". We've got to be human beings first, address the human condition primarily. ..everything else is secondary. I often feel that issues of race, gender, etc. are really just straw man issues deliberately excited to draw attention away from what the real issue of oppression really is--wealth inequality. We should start there, in unison, and when that is resolved, move to the rest.

The major gripe of the skinhead kids I grew up with was a financial one, and a genuine one. That sort of hate group flourishes where poverty reigns, opportunities are very few, and the group offers some, any sense of empowerment. If progressives as ourselves were engaged there, and active in those regions, I'm sure we'd recruit there as well as anywhere. I find it strange and ironic in the extreme that the majority of CHE worshipers I know are members of a very elite, even effete, privileged middle class. Because of this, much of the time this most important focus is lost, as the financial aspect of oppression and inequality are really very lost in this group, having never experienced it.

So, what to do?

[Sand Castle]

Originally posted by JayFitz@May 01, 2007 01:07 am


So, what to do?

Basically what you said, unite as humans and work together on this problem. We can't just be all "oh, they don't think the same way as me so I don't want to work with them to stop racism and fascism, which could and does hurt everyone including me." Yet, I seem to see a lot of that. Everybody is just set in their ways (I hate that).

[JayFitz]

With the death of useful labor unions across the US and rapidly declining real wages there is an opportunity for labor organizers to be successful and and welcome even in a way that hasn't been possible in a long time.

[Spartacist]

I pity and feel empathy for them more than anything. They have more in common with most of us than you think, frankly.

You know, where i live there is a fascist gang called the Blue Shirts. It has been estimated that they have as many as 2,000 members ages 14-25. They are active on two local high school campuses and at the local community college. They are well organized, well led and can turn their members out VERY quickly (cell phone network). They have gone head-to-head with Black and Hispanic gangs in the area and have won. They chased an anti-war rally off the college campus. They recruit by openly attacking the views of teachers/professors in the schools thus embolding the quiet, meek sheep among the student body to join them. They quite litterally own a gym near my apartment where they bulk up, that also helps draw more recruits.

Pity these guys? I wish I had a fucking RPG that would take every last one of these fuckers O-U-T!

[JayFitz]

I hear you, BUT

Obviously their success in recruitment is due to the fact that they're organizing better than we are, and that they offer empowerment more than we do. You cant blame them for choosing their best option.

The thing that hamstrings our side of the fence is this--we're mostly a lot of liberal privileged snots. I'd say myself mostly too. We're much less interested in a cause, or joining a cause, than LEADING a cause. We much more want to BE Che, or whatever or whoever, that participating in something else led by someone else. As such, obviously, we're more interested in serving ourselves than others, and we'll be busted as long as that continues. Fascisms power and appeal is in the realization that it offers immediate remedy to legitimately oppressed people. Communism can too, but often gets too caught up in its own hubris.

[Sugar Hill Kevis]

Fascism is NOT nationalistic socialism...

The name fascism comes from the fasci who were revolutionaries active in sicily... But that's about as far as it goes...

In 1919 where the first incarnation of fascismo came in to place at the Milan meeting, there was a left of centre agenda... It was republican, secular and supported a controlled economy - though still very nationalist... If this is what you mean for "classical sense" I see where you're coming from - although at the same time this fascism was ardently anti-socialist...

Within a year the left wing rhetoric had been dropped, this sort of coincided with the autonomous squadrismo movement which mussolini latched himself on to (groups that organised tax boycotts in socialist controlled towns, beat up/ killed socialists in the street on polling days and miscellaneous violent actions)... Fascism had no made pacts with the liberals (giolliti may 1921), made concessions to the catholic church, wholeheartedly supported a free market (udine speech, 1921) as well as the monarchy (1922 naples speech)... Notice I've included events before Mussolini became prime minister, as that's when fascism was really put in to action.

Now I'd hardly think that within the space of one to two years you could have two currents of a movement which were 'classical' and mainstream or whatever you want to call it... the left of centre fascism was incredibly unpopular (in Mussolini's constituency of Milan he got 5000 out of about 250000 votes), it quickly changed it's tune. It's more of a footnote on the page of early fascism rather than a classical definition of the term, especially that none of these practices were ever put in to effect in fascist italy...

In fascism there was vertical syndicalism in which the managers and workers were organised in to one state run union. Here the state was supposed to mediate and help workers have a "fair" deal while still supporting the boss's right to leach of their workers. Nevertheless, as expected the state nearly always took the side of the boss...

By the time 1923 rolled around and Mussolini had the 12 month decree, he made concessions to the industrialists - he lowered tax, removed lots of regulation, privatised industries and all that sort of jazz. Hardly "nationalistic socialism". And that's STILL before the dictatorship was announced.

[JayFitz]

Sure, good points. I mean socialist in the pure Marxist sense--as Marx would define our economy as basically socialist. A depraved sort of socialism, and a transitory form, but as we have the working class paying for the whole of the military, of infrastructure, even of public "ownership" and subsidization of all the major corporations--more or less mandated by law or at least certainly strongly encouraged by tax structure, only thing really lacking is that the same working class would reap the benefits of this ownership. Of course this is the sticking point, public costs and private profits--but en masse, by definition, much more socialist than capitalist.

[Red October]

I can pity some skins, but when they kill our comrades, there is no room for pity. When they actively fight the worker's struggle, they must be crushed. i would love for them to drop their racist bullshit and work with us but we can't afford to sit around and wait for them to do that. As long as they kill our comrades and attack the workers, they are our enemies.

[ahab]

Originally posted by JayFitz@April 30, 2007 01:28 am
Um, so, perhaps an apology. . .but give me a second.

Let's first say that I grew up in the state of Idaho in the US. I was a juv. justice councilor there and knew the skin heads, militants, etc. first hand.

Let me say first off those kids aren't racists, though they think they are--they're merely super super ignorant screwups. Poor, ignorant, sometimes nut cases. Frankly, because I those people first hand, I pity and feel empathy for them more than anything. They have more in common with most of us than you think, frankly.

That being said, uh, how to we define fascism?

Well, I'd define that in it's classic sense. Nationalistic Socialism.

What are the goals of Nationalistic Socialism? To use often religious, patriotic symbolism to motivate the masses to socialize the costs of business, but privatize the profits of the ruling elite. I don't personally see the forces of facism in the Klan or any of the other kook organizations--I see Fascism embodied in Wal-mart.

Modern Fascism is very sophisticated. It isn't goosestepping anymore, but the goosestepping attitude can still be seen. You goosestep through life. Get a job, work for a major cooperation, goosestep along for them. Indebt the hell out of yourself, buy a super over priced house, goosestep along for the bank. Raise the 2.5 kids, but be sure you keep in hock to do it--as this is really the key to keeping the masses in line. Can you believe 28 percent interest is legal? It's a vastly more effective way of keeping people under control than guns!

So, hence my piracy posts. I know full well the impact one faces once one steps outside that approved boundaries of lifestyle--the most dangerous thing to fascism is to show other values other ways to live that are benevolent and effective.

I worry that progressives loose sight of the big picture by taking on the small issues again and again and again. . .

We need to realize that the skinhead and the E. LA black gang member have much much more in common than not. They have the same gripe, and it's fair. Modern fascisms power is in keeping them isolated from each other--and frankly we from them.

these kids are fucked up retards, any person who claims affiliation with white supremacy, nazism, fascism, or any of its many organizations or groups need to be hunted down, beaten down and in some cases killed. They are a REAL threat, this isnt just a phase, in most cases these people are militant and so brainwashed they will do anything they are told, rape, murder, whatever it may be and they do. Doesnt matter if they are 10 or 50, a nazi is a nazi, a fascist is a fascist, they know what they are doing and they should pay for it

[JayFitz]

hey, no body is saying that a nazi or any other variety of fascist is any friend of mine--my only point is that NOBODY is BORN a fascist, a supremacists, a racist, a bigot or otherwise. But what I insist and want to point out is that obviously there's a lot of turmoil and anxiety in some kids, likely for good reasons, and the same reasons we have--the difference is that a Fascist organization or perhaps just a fascist notion, got into their heads BEFORE any of us did. And that's OUR failure. We're not proactive enough getting in there with real answers and empowerment where we should.

I more or less agree, however, that once they're lost they're probably lost for good.

[Red October]

Originally posted by JayFitz@May 08, 2007 06:50 pm
hey, no body is saying that a nazi or any other variety of fascist is any friend of mine--my only point is that NOBODY is BORN a fascist, a supremacists, a racist, a bigot or otherwise. But what I insist and want to point out is that obviously there's a lot of turmoil and anxiety in some kids, likely for good reasons, and the same reasons we have--the difference is that a Fascist organization or perhaps just a fascist notion, got into their heads BEFORE any of us did. And that's OUR failure. We're not proactive enough getting in there with real answers and empowerment where we should.

I more or less agree, however, that once they're lost they're probably lost for good.

I do agree with you about the need for preventing people from becoming fascists. That said, we also cannot afford to sit around in group therapy with a bunch of nazi assholes. Once they start marching around with swastika armbands, it's time to kill them.

[Red_Pride]

Originally posted by JayFitz@April 30, 2007 01:28 am
I see Fascism embodied in Wal-mart.

You know there is a thread about Wal-Mart selling Nazi shirts. :P

DOWN WITH RACISM!

[Severian]

Originally posted by JayFitz@May 06, 2007 11:56 am
The thing that hamstrings our side of the fence is this--we're mostly a lot of liberal privileged snots. I'd say myself mostly too.

Yeah, well, speak for yourself. Not that I'm going to defend the middle-class left.

So here we have a liberal privileged snot telling Black people and women that their oppression is unimportant. Well, you've got that in common with the fascists....

In reality, it's impossible to address class exploitation without fighting against the racism and sexism which the ruling class uses to divide the working class.

If you try, you end up with a movement of white men only, trying to keep their privileges relative to women and non-whites, using populist rhetoric. Like people who oppose immigrants' rights in the name of "American born" workers.

Definitely not a movement of, by, and for, the entire working class.

Fascisms power and appeal is in the realization that it offers immediate remedy to legitimately oppressed people.

And now we find out fascism's offering an immediate remedy to legitimately opressed people. As well as its recruits being better people than us "effete" che worshippers. (Fascism's also big on opposing the elite, not for being an elite, but for being "effete." )

And present-day far-right movements are also big on opposing the Big Bad Bogeyman of State Centralization. Which you misleadingly label fascism.

Which side are you on again?

[Comrade Marcel]

Urm, to think they are not racist you have to be either ignorant, white, or both.

North ameriKKKan society itself is racist to the roots. Every day racism exists in various forms and people who are not of the privileged colour are the ones who experience it. To say organized racists are not racist under a racist structure... well, doesn't make much sense, does it?