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The question posed is a symbol, but highly controversial one. Is the Swastika a symbol which has become universally unnaceptable because of its Nazi usage and associations with the horrific actions of the Third Reich, or is it an Ancient symbol used by almost every human culture that, although it has been raped by Nazi usage, remains a symbol that is not necessarily based on racism and hatred?
Try not to be so ethnocentric when answering this question, remember that it has been used by many different peoples (including Jewish), and is not even just an old Hindu symbol. I will post some pictures of non-Nazi swastika's to emphasize this point, and if you have read the post on the shirts sold at Wal-Mart, many of these you will have already seen, but I think this is a worthy debate in and of itself.
This is a Quilt made by Indigenous Americans in the mid-20's:
This is a Korean Buddhist Temple (no religious debate please):
This is an Iranian Necklace, a few centuries old:
This is the flag of the Kuna People, an Indigenous group in Panama:
This is a Communist Banner from Nepal (which prooves the dissacociation of Swastka symbols from nazism in Asian cultures):
This design comes from a Burial mound of Mississippi Indigenous people:
These are many different variants on the symbol by different cultures:
So what do you think? Is it a universal symbol of hate due to the way the Nazi's used it, or is it a many-faceted symbol? Personally, I dont even like to call what the Nazi's used a swastika. They didnt even call it that, the Nazi's called it the Hakenkreutz, and for me the hakenkreutz (hooked cross) is the symbol of hate that is used by the fascist scum, not the swastika. It is easy to set apart the nazi variant on the symbol from most others, most swastika's are peaceful looking, and unimposing, while the Nazi symbol is imposing and threatening. They have raped the swastika, and they have spat in the face of every culture which used it.
I dont think its time to take the symbol back in the west, but Im sure there will come a day when we will be able to look at non-Nazi swastika's and not instantly associate them with hatred and brutality.
<span style=\'color:red\'>Liberty without Socialism is privilege, injustice; Socialism without Liberty is Slavery and Brutality.
-Mikhail Bakunin</span>
<span style=\'color:gray\'>The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.
-Murray Bookchin</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
-Peter Kropotkin</span>
Although the Swastika was used by many cultures the fact the Nazis used it has caused it to be a hate symbol.
I don't expect it to ever be considered any other way, just becuase of the Fascists.
Just one more thing these pigs have ruined, I suppose.
I like my coffee like I like my women, black.
I was at an indian culture festival recentley in my city and they had an art exhibit with lots of local works by Indian-Australians. There where heaps of swastikas in the art works which sort of took me aback alittle when I saw then but then I thought it was cool how there taking it back from the nazi's.
My gf (who's jewish) says whenever she see's a swastika she tries to think of it as a ancient hindu symbol rather than a symbol of hate.
I definitley think it can be taken back by the cultures who used it originally.
And in many cultures, it wasnt taken at all. If you go to Eastern Asia or India, they have swastika's everywhere and nobody associates them with the Nazi's, the communist banner was really effective in displaying this cultural gap I think. I remember that Pokemon even go into heat for putting swastika's into the Japanese version of the video game, but this really wasnt a concern in Japanese culture, because a Japanese kid playing it woud have made the same associations that a Western kid would.
I remember being young and going "WTF?" when I saw a swastika on a statue of the Buddha, so its deffinately a western thing to associate it with the Nazi's, even if Western cultures also had pre-nazi usage of the symbol. I suppose this is because the Nazi's never penetrated into Asia, and couldnt leave as much of a scar on Asian culture as they did on Western.
<span style=\'color:red\'>Liberty without Socialism is privilege, injustice; Socialism without Liberty is Slavery and Brutality.
-Mikhail Bakunin</span>
<span style=\'color:gray\'>The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.
-Murray Bookchin</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
-Peter Kropotkin</span>
In a town near mine, some bigots sprayed swastikas on a Hindu temple. Then someone else wrote to the paper explaining the swastika's Hindu roots and I thought "pwnd."
There was swastika scratched into the side of the tram i caught yesterday... I would have defaced it if I'd had my marker, if the tram hadn't been quite so full.
What kind of loser does shit like that? It really contributes to the creation of the public space as a 'white' area- and I hate it! I hate geting that vibe that 'people like you' aren't welcome. I got it on Anzac Day, and I got it when I saw that swastika on the tram... :angry:
On topic- I've lived in what's basically a Western and Asian context, so I've always mentally distinguished the Nazi swastika from other kinds. Basically, what I mean is that I've never really associated the swastika's I've seen say... on Indian art, with the Hakenkreutz, except in that the latter is a bastardisation of a cultural symbol. So as EU said, it's not so much reclamation as two distinct ideas.
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... It is hard to say what will become of the Swastika, there has never before been anything quite like this in history, the criminals ussually came out on top and were glorified like the Brits commited horrible crimes but the british caot of arms isn't considered hateful, on the other hand look at the confedrate flag after well over 100 it still represtents racism and hatred... My guess is that the Swatika will be tainted in western society for several centurys, at least.
Thoughts about Revlefts new banner-
they seem to scream "We're anti-capitalist! now buy our shit!!!"
Well that really depends on how fast neofascism is erradicated. If there are no longer any people still alive who have lived through the Nazi Regime, and there are no large groups of people still ejaculating to what it stood for, the Third Reich will finally pass into history and become as emotionally dull as the regimes of Genghis Khan or Vlad Tepes.
Of course, I dont really think this will happen in our lifetimes per se.
<span style=\'color:red\'>Liberty without Socialism is privilege, injustice; Socialism without Liberty is Slavery and Brutality.
-Mikhail Bakunin</span>
<span style=\'color:gray\'>The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.
-Murray Bookchin</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
-Peter Kropotkin</span>
Allways have some easy-to-apply antifa stickers with you, with a lil bit of exercise, you can slap them on with one hand in a crowded street in broad daylight.
I argee, several centuries was an over statement, but 150 years is probably a good estimate...
Thoughts about Revlefts new banner-
they seem to scream "We're anti-capitalist! now buy our shit!!!"
It's heavily tainted in the west, but it was out of use for centuries anyway. In non-western cultures, the stigma is far less, sometimes nonexistent. Context is everything.
I believe that as more people read about Fascism and the Nazis the, negative view, or associations, of the Swastika will increase, especially in western societies probable the same but to a lesser extent in "non-western" nations.
I remember the first time I saw a swastika a Muslim guy told me it was an Indian symbol. Years later after studying WW2 I associated the swastika with Nazis and the Holocaust. I remember watching a cricket match being played in India and they showed a temple with the swastika on it. At first I was shocked but then I remembered what the guy had told me, you see despite knowing of its original uses first I still associated it mainly and firstly with Nazis.
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It wasnt out of use, many groups, such as the boyscouts of America were using it....Actually on that note, before Hitler came to power, Americans did the pledge of allegiance with a "Bellamy Salute" which is essentially the same as the Nazi one. Of course they ripped that off of the Romans, but Evil Empires think alike...
<span style=\'color:red\'>Liberty without Socialism is privilege, injustice; Socialism without Liberty is Slavery and Brutality.
-Mikhail Bakunin</span>
<span style=\'color:gray\'>The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.
-Murray Bookchin</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
-Peter Kropotkin</span>
Boyscouts... Figures.
Thoughts about Revlefts new banner-
they seem to scream "We're anti-capitalist! now buy our shit!!!"
The swastika was only chosen cause Hitler was looking for some thing different to use as a logo. I once read that he spent days looking for a symbol to use as a "trademark"
for his self proclaimed "3rd Reich".
I can agree with that, but I'll still stay will my point. Sure, it was used in the West, but it was very small in comparison to other cultures. In essence, the West's perception of the Swastika became attached to Nazism because there was no other obvious prior perception. Just my opinion, but I don't think the West used it that much at all prior to fascism.
Also because it is a powerful meme, it is aesthetically pleasing (without its historical connections to the 3rd Reich) and it sticks to the mind. As a regime built on propaganda, it was perfect. This is the same reason Hitler had his constant haircut and moustache, it was a meme. I mean honestly, how many of you have had the same hairstyle and facial hair consistantly for the last 13 years? He was doing that out of PR strategies.
<span style=\'color:red\'>Liberty without Socialism is privilege, injustice; Socialism without Liberty is Slavery and Brutality.
-Mikhail Bakunin</span>
<span style=\'color:gray\'>The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.
-Murray Bookchin</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
-Peter Kropotkin</span>
Have any of you heard of 'Manwoman'?
ManWoman is an activist attempting to rehabilitate the swastika.
Good luck witth that.
Check the tattoos... :wacko:
http://www.manwoman.net/
In my mind I feel the soft darkness of a spring night. It is May 1871, and I see the red reflection of flames. It is Paris afire. That fire is a dawn
-Louise Michel
Why would anybody want to bring back the swastika? I mean like it's 8 lines, it's not like it is an integeral part of western culture (By that I meant that I have no expectation from it to be removed any culture in whch it is a spritual symbol or something like that).Originally posted by Circle A@May 05, 2007 10:02 pm
Have any of you heard of 'Manwoman'?
ManWoman is an activist attempting to rehabilitate the swastika.
Good luck witth that.
Check the tattoos... :wacko:
http://www.manwoman.net/
Thoughts about Revlefts new banner-
they seem to scream "We're anti-capitalist! now buy our shit!!!"
The Nazi swastika is inverted in a different position from the other traditional ones.
Besides, why the fuck do communists need to be worried about it? It's a mystical symbol in it's other forms and I doubt we are ever going to be in a confusing situation trying to decipher the difference between a group of Hindus and white supremacists.
If certain ethnic/national groups do use the symbol, I don't see how it is anything to worry about. However, anytime nazis show their ugly faces we need to oppose them regardless of whatever symbols they use.
Neo-Maoist rants: http://marcelthemaoist.blogspot.com The Commie Geek: http://mistax1337.blogspot.com
