"No Racists Allowed"

[bcbm]

Originally posted by listener@July 09, 2007 02:29 pm
The more difficult problem is to educate and organize the average white to come to terms with what racism=white supremacy (as a system) really is.
The next step is to convince them that it is important to fight this system, to undermine this system.

I couldn't agree more. I think that organizing against white supremacy in general though will come as part of larger class organizing and working to build combatant groups. The struggle against capital will hopefully bring other systemic problems to the front and make them easier to crush.

Yes, we can wait for 'the revolution', lol, and this will probably change exactly nothing as long as people don't mature.
All are equal but some are more equal, this is what will come out of any 'revolution' without great masses standing behind it and also without understanding that it is our search for classification and class, which makes it almost impossible to create justice

Pretty much.

[Libber]

Originally posted by black coffee black metal@July 09, 2007 04:19 pm
Using similar language (as most political groups do- gasp&#33 does not make the ideas equal.

Sorry, but it does. You say, to justify your willingness to behave as the fascists do, "but we are noble and pure, and they are vile". But of course they say, and believe, the same thing. And neither of you has the insight to see that you're more alike than you are different.

Behavior different? Beliefs different. Behavior the same? Beliefs the same. The words don't matter--they're just propaganda.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Libber@July 09, 2007 02:40 pm
Sorry, but it does.

What? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Groups with fundamentally different agendas, goals and rhetoric are not "the same" simply because the methods and words they use against each other are similar.

You say, to justify your willingness to behave as the fascists do, "but we are noble and pure, and they are vile". But of course they say, and believe, the same thing.

You're placing it in moralistic terms, something I've never done. I'm approaching the problem logically from a class perspective. That right there differs my approach fundamentally from that of the fascists.

And neither of you has the insight to see that you're more alike than you are different.

More rubbish. One look at the content of our ideas shows them to be fundamentally different and, here's the bit that leads to conflict, fundamentally opposed. The idea that all violence is somehow the same is absurd, as is the idea that two groups fighting, simply because they fight, are the same.

Behavior different? Beliefs different. Behavior the same? Beliefs the same. The words don't matter--they're just propaganda.

That makes no sense at all. You can't divorce actions from the thinking behind them.

Of course, all you've done so far is talk shit. Are you a revolutionary leftist? If so, how do we get from here to there? What do we do about racists and fascists? Etc.

[listener]

I think that organizing against white supremacy in general though will come as part of larger class organizing and working to build combatant groups. The struggle against capital will hopefully bring other systemic problems to the front and make them easier to crush.

But how to organize people, this is the problem. To find a common ground from which to start. As long as the average white person even doesn't see/doesn't want to see the systemic racism and discrimination it is difficult to find this common ground.
And the same, as long as we take this mind-set to our own organizations with us and somehow organize our organizations exactly this way (hierarchy, dominance, paternalism, many disagreements) it's somewhat like a single mess/chaos.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by listener@July 09, 2007 03:07 pm
But how to organize people, this is the problem. To find a common ground from which to start. As long as the average white person even doesn't see/doesn't want to see the systemic racism and discrimination it is difficult to find this common ground.

Our common ground is our class background- we're organizing as working class people and I think this will lead to opposition to racism by simple necessity. Of course, some working-class organizations can maintain racist stances, so this isn't by any means a foolproof theory... I agree, it is a major problem we need to face and overcome. For now, its important to challenge racism when we see it. Not just by violence, of course, but by calling it out at the least.

And the same, as long as we take this mind-set to our own organizations with us and somehow organize our organizations exactly this way (hierarchy, dominance, paternalism, many disagreements) it's somewhat like a single mess/chaos.

Its a difficult task to dispose of all the garbage this world has filled us with.

[listener]

Our common ground is our class background- we're organizing as working class people and I think this will lead to opposition to racism by simple necessity. Of course, some working-class organizations can maintain racist stances, so this isn't by any means a foolproof theory... I agree, it is a major problem we need to face and overcome. For now, its important to challenge racism when we see it. Not just by violence, of course, but by calling it out at the least.

I didn't mean the class as background. There are many working class people and also poor people who hold very racist views. This is how this system works.
The common ground I was talking about is that people have to learn that racism destroys democratic and human values.
When you talk with average whites (working class mostly) about racism, it's for most clear, racism is bad. Because the believe racism is the "abstract" unknown white supremacist. They don't want to identify with them.
When you go deeper and talk about white privilege and white supremacy, it's over. Then the denial etc. starts. And THIS, this denial is a great problem to find a common ground (at least this I am talking about)

[Sir_No_Sir]

Can we first start off with the common ground that racism is born of a ruling class that attempts to pit whites against blacks against whoever? And that it is totally irrational. Therefore, we should be able to easily disbunk racism. We should be able to (relatively) easily tell people why racism is utter shit. Let the racists and fascists argue, for if the working class is logical at heart, should we not be able to debunk them with logic?

[RNK]

I think resolving the problem must take two steps:

1 - Education on race, class, and how each affects the other;
2 - Ass-kickings

Sorry, but I don't buy into the "saying we're going to kick their ass is equal to them saying they want to exterminate the jewish race". The fact is, it isn't equal; one is born of a determination to rule over others, while the other is born of self-defense and the defense of those who can not defend themselves. Any attempt to liken the two is, in my opinion, apologist bullshit and has absolutely no place coming out of the mouths (or fingers) of dedicatedly revolutionary people. Unfortunately, if you haven't realized it already, we're going to have to step on the feet of a few people in order to benefit the majority; kicking the shit out of, and in some cases, killing a few dumbass inbreds is inconsequential. I'd rather see a dead Nazi than a dead non-white young girl.

In summation, I will leave with a quote by none other than Mr. Adolf Shitler himself, who so eloquantly said:

"The only way the rise of the German Nazi Party could have been prevented was if its enemies had recognised it for what it was right at the start and had smashed it in its infancy with utmost force"

We must smash this, now, while we're still able.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

We must smash this, now, while we're still able.

All right, I'll pretend to be a Marxist for a minute and suggest that the material conditions of the early 21st century are not the same material conditions and idoelogical conditions as the early to mid 20th. Hitler and Mussolini style fascism cannot rise from below again and it is a detrimental waste of energy to think one is heroically stopping the rise of fascism by beating up fat bald men.

However, those scenarios hypothectically could be instated from above.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Juan Sin Tierra@July 09, 2007 08:14 pm
All right, I'll pretend to be a Marxist for a minute and suggest that the material conditions of the early 21st century are not the same material conditions and idoelogical conditions as the early to mid 20th.

The conditions that gave rise to fascism are entirely repeatable- they occur when capitalism enters crisis and the bosses need a way to secure their position and destroy revolutionary working class organization.

it is a detrimental waste of energy to think one is heroically stopping the rise of fascism by beating up fat bald men.

Its already been explained (multiple times) that most antifa recognize that those people are generally not capable of establishing any sort of state power right now. That isn't why we fight them. It is because when they are allowed to organize at all, they become dangerous for minorities, leftists and others.

[Kropotkin Has a Posse]

The conditions that gave rise to fascism are entirely repeatable- they occur when capitalism enters crisis and the bosses need a way to secure their position and destroy revolutionary working class organization.

I know, but the way I see it would be more likely to happen from above, instituted by a conservative government. And even that is less likely than a state instituting numerous welfare programs to placate a millitant populace or halt overproduction. Think about Keynsian economics and their role in preventing capitalist collapse. The ruling class may have gotten wise to the fact that social democracy is a more powerful way of pacifying the people than the stick approach of fascism.

Its already been explained (multiple times) that most antifa recognize that those people are generally not capable of establishing any sort of state power right now. That isn't why we fight them. It is because when they are allowed to organize at all, they become dangerous for minorities, leftists and others.

How many of them actually do so? And how often are they challenged by the people themselves and not outside groups designed to fight them?

[fabiansocialist]

Originally posted by Chrissy@April 03, 2007 08:59 am
Well I thought it would be a good idea to print up a bunch of signs that say "No racists Allowed" on regular paper and go door to door to stores and restaurants and ask it they would be willing to put up one of the signs in their window. I think it would help to put pressure on society by confronting people with the day to day reality of the existence of racism, or just by making people stop and think for a second about it. Racism needs to be confronted in a more active and direct way in society and people's lives, and the fact that it is wrong needs to be reinforced. Everywhere. People shouldn't be allowed to get away with even little racist jokes, they should be openly shunned by society even to the point that store owners wouldn't serve them. Hence the idea for the sign.

What a red herring. The West is based on racism. The US occupation of Iraq is based on racism (though never acknowledged). The European colonial empires were based on racist philosophy. How are you going to eliminate that? By a bunch of posters directed at poor, ignorant whites who don't even matter and support lost causes like the BNP?

[bcbm]

How many of them actually do so? And how often are they challenged by the people themselves and not outside groups designed to fight them?

When they come out publicly for demos, they're often challenged by large segments of the community they're appearing in. On the streets, its usually antifa, but so what? It needs to be done.

[Sir_No_Sir]

I thought the BNP was rather large in the UK?

[luxemburg89]

QUOTE
This has fuck-all to do with civil rights. Its a question of self and communal defense. Xxxs and yyys allowed the ability to organize are dangerous to me, my family, my friends and a whole lot of other people. Why would I let them come to my community and organize without any interference? They are our enemies, period, and they deserve nothing but boots in the face. Fuck this liberal [civil rights] bullshit.



Yep, that's exactly what the fascists say. I hardly needed to change a word.

Utter bollocks listener, you don't seem to have a clue. Fascists want to hurt/maim/kill people due to racial and social prejudice and favour a return to a Feudal system (all bow down to God and the leader). Hitler, for example, instilled the values of the Teutonic Middle Ages into Germany based on the Volk myths and legends. We want to end all segregation, heirarchy and oppression. To do this we have to defeat the oppressors (and don't give me any nonesense like 'fighting an oppressor makes you oppressive yourself' - it doesn't, it makes you a freedom-fighter, and it is the fact that liberals cannot grasp that concept that makes them so useless for progression - well that and Capitalism).
Let me put it to you like this: Hitler comes into your town and starts insulting your friend, then he beats them up, then he strips them and gases them. You would what, respect his opinion and right to do that?? People like that make me sick, the liberals and the conservatives helped Hitler into power. These fascists essentially want the same thing as Hitler, and yet you dare to criticise us for wanting to stop them? What kind of leftist are you?!
If you want to stand by and do nothing fine, enjoy your time in a concentration camp when they come to power. But don't you dare criticise us for wanting to fight this evil.

[luxemburg89]

I thought the BNP was rather large in the UK?

Big enough to be a pain in the arse, with the potential to be a threat but no it's pretty small - bigger than the communist parties put together though. If we stop them now, which will be pretty easy and there's a load of campaigns going about stopping them, then I don't think they'll be a problem in the future. Although having said that we shouldn't underestimate the extent to which Fascism would appeal to the British, they - and I like to distance myself - can be exceedingly racist (well the middle classes anyway) and nationalist. I have faith in the British working-class who, in my experience, actually embrace the 'immigrant workers' the BNP and other bourgeois nationalists are always saying 'steal our jobs' - well the workers don't seem to mind. Britain has a substantial middle class and that's where the BNP get their support - I still think the BNP will be pretty easy to stop though. The Conservatives (Nationalist racists in liberal clothing) will be the major problem.

[listener]

Utter bollocks listener, you don't seem to have a clue.

Luxemburg I don't know to what you are referring, this what you quoted wasn't something I said.

I also didn't say to do nothing, I didn't say to let white supremacists rally like they please. But just knocking them down will change nothing

[Libber]

Originally posted by luxemburg89@July 11, 2007 05:36 am

What kind of leftist are you?!

don't you dare criticise us for wanting to fight this evil.

What kind of leftist am I? I'm the kind who actually respects the proletariat, because I'm one of them, born and raised.

I'm not the kind that created the soviet state, the gulags, the ChK/NKVD/MVD/KGB, and Lubyanka. I'm not the kind that talks about how the workers have to be led by a vanguard cadre because they're too ignorant to recognise crap when someone dumps a load in front of them.

I'm not the kind who thinks fascist tactics are fine as long as they're being used For The People. I am the kind who's been around long enough to know that it's the fascists who always claim that what they're doing is for the good of the people.

I criticise fascism wherever I find it. And I'm finding it here, in statements like yours.

[luxemburg89]

Originally posted by Libber+July 11, 2007 01:31 pm--> (Libber @ July 11, 2007 01:31 pm)

luxemburg89

@July 11, 2007 05:36 am

What kind of leftist are you?!

don't you dare criticise us for wanting to fight this evil.

What kind of leftist am I? I'm the kind who actually respects the proletariat, because I'm one of them, born and raised.

I'm not the kind that created the soviet state, the gulags, the ChK/NKVD/MVD/KGB, and Lubyanka. I'm not the kind that talks about how the workers have to be led by a vanguard cadre because they're too ignorant to recognise crap when someone dumps a load in front of them.

I'm not the kind who thinks fascist tactics are fine as long as they're being used For The People. I am the kind who's been around long enough to know that it's the fascists who always claim that what they're doing is for the good of the people.

I criticise fascism wherever I find it. And I'm finding it here, in statements like yours. [/b]

Actually I wasn't talking to you. And I am sick of this 'I'm more working-class than thou' attitude some have on here - it's pathetic. Most of us are working-class.

I'm not the kind that created the soviet state, the gulags, the ChK/NKVD/MVD/KGB, and Lubyanka. I'm not the kind that talks about how the workers have to be led by a vanguard cadre because they're too ignorant to recognise crap when someone dumps a load in front of them.

I happen to agree with you there - I don't necessarily believe in the vanguard cadre either.

I'm not the kind who thinks fascist tactics are fine as long as they're being used For The People. I am the kind who's been around long enough to know that it's the fascists who always claim that what they're doing is for the good of the people.

This is where we disagree, and where you appear to be mistaken. You are confusing Authoritarianism and Fascism. Fascism believes in Heirarchy etc. as I said and Authoritarianism is well, as its name states. I do not believe in Authoritarianism, just to make that clear. However to accuse me of fascism is utterly rediculous. Wanting to silence fascists (who would attack people based on racial prejudice) - and by silence I mean stop them getting their poisonous beliefs across not kill them - is not fascism itself. I believe fascists should not get the right to air their beliefs - because of the damage it will do. Basically it boils down to this: You either let fascists terrorise those they believe to be inferior by letting them speak and act, or you don't. By not letting them act you are not being fascist you are preventing fascism. The Nuremburg Trials for example, do you believe it was an act of fascism to imprison kill and ban the nazis - who, must i remind you, killed 10million in concentration camps. The second you let fascists get their views across is the second you allow fascism a small success.

Shooting someone is not necessarily a Fascist action - are you against the communist partisans that hanged and shot Mussolini? Not allowing someone to get their racist views across is not fascism, it's common sense and its safety. Why should we let these bastards offend every person they consider 'degenerate'? Fascists, those who wish to restrict freedom themselves, are here being defended because they have a lack of freedom? I'm sure this is not your intent. I do see your point, but I can honestly say to call me fascist is rediculous. In fact I'm a pacifist by nature, I just understand the regretful need for violence sometimes - though I wish it wasn't necessary.

[Libber]

Actually I wasn't talking to you.

If you didn't quote the wrong person, then yes, you were talking to me. You thought you were talking to Listener, but as she pointed out, she didn't write what you quoted. I did.

And I am sick of this 'I'm more working-class than thou' attitude some have on here - it's pathetic. Most of us are working-class.

Better not ask "what kind of leftist are you" then. Because if you ask it of me, I'll tell you.

Wanting to silence fascists (who would attack people based on racial prejudice) - and by silence I mean stop them getting their poisonous beliefs across not kill them - is not fascism itself. I believe fascists should not get the right to air their beliefs - because of the damage it will do.

Ask yourself this: do fascists try to shut down other people? The historical record gives a clear answer, over and over again: yes, they do. It's a defining characteristic of fascists. So unless you want to try the "some are more equal than others" defence ("it's okay when WE do it") then yes, it's fascist behavior.

Would it be fascist if we forced them to wear big swastikas pinned to their clothing so people could easily recognise them? How about making it a law that they have to add "Adolf" or "Adolfina" to their names so that when they fill up an employment application or government form people know what they're dealing with? What about locking them up in gulag "corrective labor" camps, maybe with some nice wrought-iron work over the gates? It could say something like "robota proizvodit svobodu" - "labor produces liberty". And since you see them as so obviously dangerous and harmful, then why not just solve the problem permanently and be done? Round them all up, a quick trip to the showers, and then they could each make a real contribution to a racism-free society by powering a generator for a few seconds. Would that be fascist?

Where do YOU draw the line, and why?