Question about a right-winger's comment

[Fodman]

I was having an argument with this guy online a few months ago who claimed to be in the US military.

I had told him that the education system in the US was far from anything that provided equal opportunities to all of the country's citizens, and he replied by saying that 80% of the US' current millionaires are all self-made (their wealth was not merely inherited).

He then went on to say that there was a guy in his army platoon that couldn't read when he joined the army, but that he taught him to read and now the very same guy has just graduated from law school, 5 years later - he argued that 'if he could do it, then anybody can' - yeah....THAT must be why 60% of the US' population lives below the poverty line! (Although he said that they weren't even poor by 'world standards' - maybe, but they're definitely the poorest working class group in the Western world.

I replied to this by saying that yes, the middle class did become richer during Reagan's time, however massive gaps in inequality also imerged as a result of this.

I had doubts over the validity of his claims, as he still believed that Saddam had WMDs lol

Were his comments correct though?.....

[Raúl Duke]

Hmm...I don't feel like I'm well qualified to answer these questions...but I'll give them a shot

80% of the US' current millionaires are all self-made (their wealth was not merely inherited).

I think this is completly false (yet I don't have any sources to refute this)...Where did he get this information?

He then went on to say that there was a guy in his army platoon that couldn't read when he joined the army, but that he taught him to read and now the very same guy has just graduated from law school, 5 years later - he argued that 'if he could do it, then anybody can' - yeah....THAT must be why 60% of the US' population lives below the poverty line! (Although he said that they weren't even poor by 'world standards' - maybe, but they're definitely the poorest working class group in the Western world.

I don't deny that social mobilization or progress exists; but I think I heard that its becoming increasingly harder to "move up" the ladder.

Also..the army pays for many things like education; but only if you survive (if the army is in a war).

About the last part...The cost of living is said to increase while the wages aren't seeing any substantial increase (possibly they are on decline).

as he still believed that Saddam had WMDs lol

Anyone who says this is someone I wouldn't trust on anykind of information.

But..he did have some, that is the ones the US gave him during the first gulf war and Iran-Iraq war!

[Fodman]

Originally posted by JohnnyDarko@March 24, 2007 05:09 pm

80% of the US' current millionaires are all self-made (their wealth was not merely inherited).

I think this is completly false (yet I don't have any sources to refute this)...Where did he get this information?

he didn't say :wacko:

thanks for your feedback mate

[ExpansiveThought]

Im sure the army institutes some kind of ideological indoctrination on its soldiers in the interest of making them feel a sense of 'righteous ferver' in battle and to raise general troop morale. "Meritocracy" is obviously one the american 'values' he's been bred to believe in.

[Janus]

and he replied by saying that 80% of the US' current millionaires are all self-made (their wealth was not merely inherited).

Though there are increasing numbers of millionaires who made their fortune on their own, that figure still looks very fishy.

Myth of the self-made man

He then went on to say that there was a guy in his army platoon that couldn't read when he joined the army, but that he taught him to read and now the very same guy has just graduated from law school, 5 years later

I would think that every army out there has entrance examinations that require some sort of basic reading and writing ability. Yes, the US has lowered its standards recently but I don't think it has lowered them that much.

[Cryotank Screams]

Originally posted by The Weatherman@March 24, 2007 12:53 pm
I had told him that the education system in the US was far from anything that provided equal opportunities to all of the country's citizens, and he replied by saying that 80% of the US' current millionaires are all self-made (their wealth was not merely inherited).

I would be willing to say that majority of millionaires, and billionaires in this country came from a solid bourgeoisie background, case in point, Bill Gates.

Although he said that they weren't even poor by 'world standards'

The poverty in America doesn't seem as bad as say third world poverty, due to the labor aristocracy.

I replied to this by saying that yes, the middle class did become richer during Reagan's time, however massive gaps in inequality also imerged as a result of this.

Again, due to the labor aristocracy.

[Lenin II]

The question isn't one of simple percentage. Firstly, before you define how many US millionaires are self-made, you must determine what a millionaire is. Is it simply someone whose assets are worth greater than $1,000,000? That farmer who drives the '78 Ford pickup but just bought a new $350,000 combine? He's a millionaire. Doesn't have a new Jag sitting in the barn, though, does he? Not to mention the number worth of the total dollars of your property will soon become moot thanks to inflation.

Of course, take it from me--it's more trouble than it's worth to debate with a right-winger. "Reason" and "facts" do not intrude upon American conservative ideology. If he objects to your reasoning, just remind him that Bush only thought there were WMDs because he kept his father's receipts.

[Fodman]

Originally posted by AndrewG@March 25, 2007 04:46 am
Of course, take it from me--it's more trouble than it's worth to debate with a right-winger. "Reason" and "facts" do not intrude upon American conservative ideology. If he objects to your reasoning, just remind him that Bush only thought there were WMDs because he kept his father's receipts.

yeah. I said that line to him and he went on this massive speel about how it was the germans, frnch and russians who sold the weapons to saddam (even though i sent him the link where Saddam shook hands with arms dealer Rumsfeld in the 80s) - he then said that these 3 countries had been bribed by Saddam , as well as loads of UN officials including Hans Blix - to vote against the war.

I just said to him that there were many more countries other than those 3 that voted against it - he thinks that Syria has the supposed WMDs

another aspect of the brainwashing he endured was saying that the Soviet Union lost the Cold War because of the arms race - and that the US won because of the meritocracy it used in its 'superior' system of capitalism that awarded the engineers for every weapon they made - WTF

there were many other right-wing brainwash comments that he made - may too many to go into though - i was only asking about the initial comment he made because i was wondering if anyone could verify it, and thank you for doing so

thanks for your contributions

[Raúl Duke]

brainwash

I suppose this is all due to the environment he was in: the US army.

Here are possible examples of environment influence:

yeah. I said that line to him and he went on this massive speel about how it was the germans, frnch and russians who sold the weapons to saddam (even though i sent him the link where Saddam shook hands with arms dealer Rumsfeld in the 80s) - he then said that these 3 countries had been bribed by Saddam , as well as loads of UN officials including Hans Blix - to vote against the war.

The thing is..he joined the army to protect America ( <_< ) so to find out that "america" is a traitor to the cause (i.e. the fact that the WMDs they&#39;re after most likely came from the US itself) he prefers to look into a different source (i.e. "brainwash", false news, etc) that fits into his world view. To him the idea that the US gave Saddam the weapons that now the US condemn and lies about, saying they came from somewhere else, is inconceivable to his mind; so, he prefers to hear the kind of news that fits his world view, which has been affected by the "US army environment" he&#39;s in.

Being determines consciousness.

and that the US won because of the meritocracy it used in its &#39;superior&#39; system of capitalism that awarded the engineers for every weapon they made - WTF

I saw a movie about either the Reagen era or right after the Cold War and it featured a weapons engineer who just got recently fired (either because the Government now wanted to use sub-contracters or they just didn&#39;t need that many weapons and its engineers). Later he finds out how unfair the "world" (i.e. capitalism) because he gets paid less ("rewarded less") than than a plastic surgeon yet he makes weapons so to defend his country, etc etc.

To say that capitalism is a meritocracy is rediculous. Some people get rich because of nepotism ("aww, I don&#39;t have to rise up the ladder or get a degree, My rich dad will give me a nice high position in his company") and other factors.