Response to Frank White

[Comrade Marcel]

http://www.***************/forum/show...nt-371721.html

Frank White, a desperate for attention stormfronter, recently posted another one of his redundant attempts to slander the anti-fascist movement with a "expose" style "question and answer", that will really only get the attention of a few of his pathetic peers for the most part. However, I am concerned about one particular section of the article related to the Stalin era of the USSR. Frankie is trying to kill two birds with one stone here by making it seem as though communism is the real "evil" and that antira/antifa are hypocritical, the real "evil" or at best "the other side of the coin". This is merely an attempt to legitimize the movement he is in, or at the very least try to elevate it closer to our level in the eyes a few fence sitters who happen to read his drivel.

The reason I am concerned is that false propaganda created to slander the USSR and Stalin in the past has been successfully campaigned by fascists and engrained in modern culture and literature in the west. Much of the spew started by the nazis themselves, and fascist sympathizers themselves (such as Hearst and Solzhenitsyn) have been taken as fact and the work as scholars, when in reality the contrary is true (see Lies Concerning the History of the Soviet Union.)

I am not going to bother reacting to any of the "answers" Franko gave about the antifa movement and ARA in particular either of late or the past decade or so. Anyone who is really interested can find out for him or herself and make their own "moral" conclusions without me having to lower myself to the gutter of shitfront to defend what the majority of the population would already side with over any WN/NS/Nazi/etc any day. I will, however, venture into the sewer of fascist lies this time, not simply for the sake of defending uncle Joe, the man of steel, Koba; but out of my persynal respect for the millions of people who lost their lives fighting against fascism and nazism, a genocidal enemy that would surely have not stopped until it wreaked havoc on the whole world and had everyone kneeling to the fascist boot.

Let's look at what Frank wrote:

Originally posted by FrankW on Stormfront+--> (FrankW on Stormfront)Q. How do you view antifa who identify with Soviet Bolshevism?

A. I view them as either hypocrites or ignorant of history! The Soviet Union was notorious for ethnic cleansing. Stalin actually forcibly transferred the Crimean Tatar population out of the Ukraine because a minority percentage of them defected to the German army after Operation Barbarossa. Stalin punished an entire identifiable population for the actions of a minority labelling them all with one broad brushstroke. As a result of this forcible relocation it is estimated that 46% of the ethnically cleansed Tatars died.

In 1967 the Soviet government withdrew Stalins quite racist charge against the entire Crimean Tatar population and absolved them of guilt. However, the Soviets never made any attempt to repatriate the Tatars back to their homeland nor did they offer any compensation for the victims of the forced ethnic cleansing. It was not until the fall of the Soviet Union that they were allowed to return home.

So how antifa people can claim to oppose racism and yet openly identify with a state like the Soviet Union is beyond me![/b]

Firstly, let's start with Whitie's last statement. Of course it is beyond you, Frankfurter. Your knowledge of Soviet history and the Stalin era seems to venture no further than a grade 9 level encyclopedia, possibly with a bit of Conquest or Solzhenitsyn recycled material mixed in.

We are speaking of a national minority that was affected here, certainly, but the charge of racism is nonsensical. Racism implies racialist theories, which was not a motivation of the USSR in this case. There is absolutely no policy or ideological content that viewed nationalities in a racialist light. Rather, this view was from the nazis, who saw the Tartar's as a useful "unter Menschen".

(You would think a "white nationalist" like FW would be able to figure these things out, but let's not forget that fascism is fueled by irrationalism and ractionaryism folks.)

The Soviet view of nationalities was related to that of the five characteristics of a nation. Comrade Stalin outlined this very clearly in his writings, and I don't think any other Marxist made it easier to understand:

Originally posted by Stalin+--> (Stalin) A historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life and psychological make-up, manifested in a common culture.[/b]

(for more on this see: http://www.oneparty.co.uk/html/marxism/Cl6.html )

There is nothing racial about the Marxist-Leninist view of the nation. Nothing like the type of stuff spouted by colonialists, you know about the Natives being savages, uncivilized, ungodly, etc. You can check all the Marxist writings you want and you will see that it is quite clear there are no “untermenschen” in our theory.

Now, on the accusation that the USSR was notorious for genocide, I'd like to ask, what genocide? Please name one ethnicity or national group that has been wiped up or significantly crippled in the USSR? If you want to speak of genocide, let's talk about European Jews who were basically eliminated from the face of the earth by the nazis. Or how about the fact that to this day their is not a single Little Tokyo or Japanese community anywhere in Kanada because they where all interned, stripped of property and not allowed anywhere near cities with a harbour/coastal cities for decades afterward?. These people where not even combatants or sympathetic to the Japanese empire! (the Tartars were a different story, we will get to it.) (See Joy Kagowa's work for more on Japanese Canadians, though it is definitely a liberal prospective).

Those are just two examples from the top of my head, I am not even going to bother to get into the American native and African genocide, since it already a fact for most people who stayed in school longer than grade 3, even though they “white” wash it at the elementary and secondary levels.

Now, back to the issue. Khrushchev did denounce some of the actions made during WW II. Depending on what type of "Soviet Bolshevist" you are (Frank's narrow description which really describes a wide variety of communists from Trotskyites to MLists to Revisionists) you may or may not disagree with Mr. K's "secret speech". As I am a "Stalinist" I definitely think his speech was the beginning of capitalist restoration, and therefore filled with lies and propaganda meant to slander the ways of socialism and legitimize the ushering in of the "new" (but really old) capitalist ways. (for more see The Restoration of Capitalism in the USSR).

A good article on the question of deporations and K's "denounciation" specifically can be read here: Bland on The Enforced Settlements.

More specifically, Comrade Klo answers the charge of Genocide:

Klo

@
That is nonsense. The Soviet Union comprised the largest collection of nationalities working in reasonable harmony with one another of any nation in the world, especially under Stalin who was appointed by Lenin to be the original Commissar of Nationalities. Stalin was considered to be the expert on the subject and, indeed, wrote the basic text. If you want national disharmony and war look at the former-USSR today under capitalism. It is a veritable cornucopia of frictions, antagonisms, wars, hatreds, and conflicts with thousands having paid the supreme price and the entire region remains a seething cauldron.

With that last part of Klo's statement in mind, I can't help but wonder how many threads we can find on SF that praise the racist/fascist movement in Russia. I am sure that many of the Kanadian "white nationalists" on SF can be quoted in awing how great it must be. Again we have irrationalism; if things are so great why is everyone so poor, pissed off and beating the shit outta' national minorities (with the exception of the Nazbols who "stick up" for all Russians and minorities but are a whole other bag of shit to talk about)? The same minorities that FrankW is "defending" in his post ? Yes, your movement is so free of hypocrisy, Franky-wanky. Your hero Hitler wanted to enslave the place; how ironic that the new ultra-nationalists of “undermenschen” are being praised now by the likes of you and your SF buddies. Frank might say that he never persynally praised any specific movement. Well fine, but Frank, either you are part of something or other on SF or and relate/agree with the others or you are just some insignificant fool venting (or a bit of both)? Either way, you represent a shared ideology of SFers and therefore we can box you in to their hypocrisy the same way you box all the ARA into your accusation of hypocrisy.

Now, some quotes courtesy of Comrade Klo:

"The greatness of this achievement in human association can
hardly be exaggerated. To bring into being a multinational State
uniting races which for centuries had been at each other’s throats,
inflicting pogroms and enslaving each other; races which were largely
illiterate, steeped in superstition, and engulfed in abysmal ignorance,
was daring in the extreme. Every nation became free to speak it's own
language, have its own schools, form its own government, and exercise
its own clearly-defined right to federate or withdraw from the
federation.... The boundaries of the republics and other autonomous
regions are but the demarcation lines of authority in essentially
national matters..... And as class oppression vanishes, national
oppression vanishes also. Every nation has the "right" to separate
itself from the Union, but none is likely to wish to exercise that
"right" when it's economic and social existence and national freedom are
tightly bound up with union."
Murphy, John Thomas. Stalin, London, John Lane, 1945, p. 147

"Every nationality in the union was allowed full linguistic
autonomy and what might have seemed a dangerously lavish degree of
cultural and political autonomy. Thus the Jews, who had remained alien
expatriates under Tsardom, received a small autonomous area with the
promise of an independent Republic if and when the number of the
population concentrated at any one point should justify the augmented
status."
Duranty, Walter. Duranty Reports Russia. New York: The Viking
Press, 1934, p. 215

"Stalin's thesis began by demonstrating the already proven fact
that the misrule of the Czars and their treatment of the subject peoples
as inferior beings, had been one of the main factors in the rapid
disintegration of the old Empire. "If we fall into this error of Great
Russian superiority, we shall suffer a similar fate," insisted Stalin,
"but if we go to the other extremes advocated by the Mensheviks and
certain European Socialist parties, and divide the new State into a
number of separate entities on an ethnological basis only, we shall
weaken ourselves vis-a-vis the capitalist states of Europe and
eventually be defeated piecemeal in a future war." Between these twin
dangers Stalin steered the Soviet ship on a middle course.
In his suggested plan the right of secession from the Soviet
republic was granted to each one of the Constituent States should its
people prefer to rule themselves rather than live under the aegis of the
Bolshevik party. While it remained part of the USSR, each nation was to
have its own elected assembly, which would exercise complete authority
in the local concerns of the population; only in decisions as to foreign
policy were the Assemblies subordinate to the Central Authority. No
attempt was made to Russianize the peoples of the different nations,
cultural traditions were to be perpetuated in the new schools, already
spreading into the most backward provinces.
By these means Stalin confidently maintained that the
centuries-old antipathy between the subject peoples and their Russian
oppressors could eventually be destroyed.
The wisdom of this fundamental contribution to the creation of
the USSR has now been proved to the hilt. Whereas in the half-century
before October, 1917, national uprisings against the Central Government
had occurred with unfailing regularity, under Bolshevik rule not one
widespread effort has been made by any one of the peoples to escape from
the Federation of Soviet Republics. This is in itself a great
achievement and will in the future be recognized as one of Stalin's most
far-reaching contributions to world progress, as each succeeding year
piles proof on proof of the sound foundation upon which the Soviet State
has been constructed.
Without Stalin's foresight, Japan would unquestionably have
established a puppet kingdom in Eastern Russia at the same time as she
annexed Manchukuo; but for the solidarity of the Stalin constitution
Hitler might have found support among the Ukrainian people such as he
found among the rabid nationalist minorities which brought Austria,
Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and France under a foreign domination.
Perhaps even these misbegotten offspring of the Versailles agreement
would have achieved a lasting stability, if they had originated in the
same free choice which created the Soviet state."
Cole, David M. Josef Stalin; Man of Steel. London, New York:
Rich & Cowan, 1942, p. 56

On the issue of the Crimean Tartars more specifically than national minorities deportations during WW II in the USSR as generally and briefly spoken of above:

One thing that was pointed out to me is that the population of the Tartars was something like 200,000 - 500,000 (roughly), and out of those, 10% were of military age and supporting the nazis alone. It is reasonable to assume that more of the population were sympathizing and even willing to fight on the side of the nazis at some point than that 10%. These people actually had already deserted or defected from the Red Army / Soviet side! This wasn't just some guess, it was fact whose side they were on!

Klo

The Tatars, like the Volga Germans, had already shown that a large
percentage of their population was on the side of the Nazis or
sympathetic to the Nazi cause. When the Soviet Union was invaded there was
certainly no time to interrogate, interview, or question each and every
member of that population to determine their ideological preferences.
The Red Army and its intelligence agencies had neither the time, the
personnel, the facilities, or the finances to carry out such an
extensive investigation which was the same policy carried out by the
United States government with respect to all Japanese living west of the
Mississippi River.

Now, some more quotes courtesy of the same comrade:

NOTE THE FOLLOWING COMMENTS BY PEOPLE IN A POSITION TO KNOW:

CHUEV: How do you explain the forced resettlement of entire ethnic
groups during the war?
MOLOTOV: ...The fact is that during the war we received reports about
mass treason. Battalions of Caucasians opposed us at the fronts and
attacked us from the rear. It was a matter of life and death; there was
no time to investigate the details. Of course innocents suffered. But
I hold that given the circumstances, we acted correctly.
Chuev, Feliks. Molotov Remembers. Chicago: I. R. Dee, 1993, p.
195

"... A number of Caucasian and near-Caucasian people had shown
themselves disloyal. The Chechens, Ingushes, the Balkarians, the people
of Karachay, the Tatars of Crimea and the Kalmyks had indeed fought
equally against the Nazis and the Soviet 'imperialisms'. The Karachay
people had openly welcomed the Germans under General Kleist and the
prime mover in this astonishing act had been none other than the
Chairman of the Provincial Executive Committee of the Soviets of the
Karachay Autonomous Province. The Crimean Tatars were still working
together with the Germans exterminating all the Russians they could,
especially the Party members. There was an anti-Soviet partisan war in
progress."
Tokaev, Grigori. Comrade X. London: Harvill Press,1956, p. 245

"... It was not till June 28, 1946, nearly three years later,
that they [the Russian people] learned about it.... The Secretary of
the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Socialist Federal
Republic, then Bakhmurov, [made] the announcement.
“Comrades,” he said, “the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of
the RSFSR places before you for confirmation the draft of a law to
abolish the Chechen-Ingush ASSR and for the transformation of the
Crimean ASSR into the Crimean province.... During the Great Fatherland
War, when the peoples of the USSR were heroically defending the honor
and independence of their Fatherland in the struggle against the
German-Fascists conquerors, many Chechens and Crimean Tatars, giving ear
to German agents, entered volunteer units organized by the Germans and
together with the German armies fought against units of the Red Army.
On German instructions, they set up saboteur bands for the struggle
against the Soviet regime in the rear. The main body of the population
of the Chechen-Ingush and Crimean Tatar ASSR's offered no resistance to
these traitors to the Fatherland. For this reason the Chechens and
Crimean Tatars have been transported to other parts of the Soviet
Union. In the new regions they have been given land as well as the
requisite state assistance for their economic establishment....”
Tokaev, Grigori. Comrade X. London: Harvill Press,1956, p. 268

"Towards the Moslem peoples, the Germans pursued a benign,
almost paternalistic policy. The Karachai, Balkars, Ingush, Chechen,
Kalmucks, and Tatars of the Crimea all displayed pro-German sympathies
in some degree. It was only the hurried withdrawal of the Germans from
the Caucasus after the battle of Stalingrad that prevented their
organizing the Moslem people for effective anti-Soviet action. The
Germans boasted loudly, however, that they had left a strong "fifth
column" behind them in the Caucasus.
Grey, Ian. Stalin, Man of History. London: Weidenfeld and
Nicolson, 1979, p. 373

"After Stalin's death five of the Moslem peoples were allowed
to return to their homes. The Crimean Tatars and Volga Germans were not
permitted to return." = Werth page 581 =
Grey, Ian. Stalin, Man of History. London: Weidenfeld and
Nicolson, 1979, p. 504

"But the real story of Sevastopol was of how the Soviet
authorities treated collaborators. The Crimean Tartars had welcomed the
arrival of the Germans. They had hunted down Russian soldiers in
disguise, had formed a police force under German control, had been
active in the Gestapo, and had supplied the Wehrmacht with soldiers.
Now the moment of reckoning had arrived. The whole Crimean tartar
community of something between 300,000 and 500,000 men, women, and
children was rounded up and sent into exile in Central Asia, and they
have never been allowed to return."
Knightley, Phillip. The First Casualty. New York: Harcourt Brace
Jovanovich, 1975, p. 263

"During their occupation of the Caucasus the Germans had
promised independence to the Chechens, the Ingush, the Balkars, and the
Kalmyks. Members of these ethnic groups did sometimes collaborate with
the Germans. The same was true of the Crimean Tartars."
Radzinsky, Edvard. Stalin. New York: Doubleday, c1996, p. 502

CHUEV: Why were the Kalmyks deported during the war?
MOLOTOV: They helped the Germans.
Chuev, Feliks. Molotov Remembers. Chicago: I. R. Dee, 1993, p. 195

The rest is summed up here:

"As a result of this forcible relocation it is estimated that 46% of the
ethnically cleansed Tatars died." - FW

"Estimated by whom? Conquest or Solzhenitsyn? Estimates are not
facts. Please provide a reliable source." - Klo

"In 1967 the Soviet government withdrew Stalins quite racist charge
against the entire Crimean Tatar population and absolved them of guilt." - FW

"That is a pure slander. Racism had nothing to do with the
deportations or the motivation of the Soviet government under Stalin.
Deportations were directly attributable to hard facts and evidence of
treason in which sizable numbers within particular nationalities were
directly or indirectly supporting the fascists. That is an undeniable
fact." - Klo

"However, the Soviets never made any attempt to repatriate the Tatars
back to their homeland nor did they offer any compensation for the
victims of the forced ethnic cleansing. It was not until the fall of the
Soviet Union that they were allowed to return home." -FW

"It was not "ethnic cleansing" in any sense. How often must I repeat
this. The Tatars had a proven and unquestionable record of providing
support to the Nazis. What would you have had the Soviet government
do? Since you apparently don't like what they did do, please tell me
what you feel they should have done." - Klo

Well Klo, we can only imagine that FW would have wanted them to surrender to the nazis.

Let's see if Frank will bother to refute the facts, or if this will even ever get mentioned on SF.

[Comrade Marcel]

I just got an e-mail from a comrade of mine, on the accusation that 46% of Tartars died during the deportation. It's actually much, much, much, much (really) lower:

This is a lie. It is NOT estimated that 46% died.

V.I. Zemskov, an anti-Stalin historian, has specialized in deportations
generally. His estimate is that of 151,720 Crimean Tatars deported, 191
died during the course of deportation.

That is 0.13 per cent. Not 13%, POINT 13 percent.

I've got this book, _Spetsposelentsy v SSSR, 1930-1960_ (Moscow 2003).
The number is on p. 111, and the footnote is to archival sources.

If you want a scanned copy of the page, let me know; I've got the book
here (it's in Russian, of course).

(This figure is cited approvingly by anti-Soviet historian Sergei
Maksudov. If you want the reference, let me know.)

In my view, this is a pretty low figure. It may even be lower than the
normal mortality rate during winter for a population of this size. It is
CERTAINLY MUCH LOWER than the mortality rate of civilians in
German-occupied areas, or in areas where the war raged! (The Crimea was
occupied by the Nazis for several years).

N.F. Bugai, a very anti-Stalin scholar, has specialized in these
deportations since the end of the USSR, and has published numerous books
on the subject.

He has ONE essay that I know of in English, in Russian Studies in
History. So, this one you could check yourself!

It's not about the Tatars -- about whom there's more evidence, BTW --
but about the Chechen-Ingush.

Bugai, N.F., A.M.Gomov. “The Forced Evacuation of the Chechens and the
Ingush.” Russian Studies in History. vol. 41, no. 2, Fall 2002

Here's a quote:

NKVD records attest to 180 convoy trains carrying 493,269 Chechen and
Ingush nationals and members of other nationalities seized at the same
time. Fifty people were killed in the course of the operation, and 1,272
died on the journey. (p. 56)

This is about double the above rate -- POINT 27 per cent; POINT 26 per
cent if you exclude the 50 killed in the course of disarming, etc. them.

Since it happened in the winter, and during the fiercest war in
European, perhaps world, history, that figure does not seem very high.
Once again, it is a lot lower than the rate suffered by Soviet civilians
in occupied areas.

Bugai would not repeat this figure if he did not believe it were true.
He considers the whole deportation business a "crime of Stalinism."

The bottom line is that you just cannot take the Conquests, Applebaums,
and other anti-communist liars at face value.

But who is going to check this stuff? And if you do check it (see above)
-- who is going to publish it?

So lies like this get spread around all the time.

"Don't drink water from a poisoned well." NEVER believe ANYTHING the
anticommunists say.

Sincerely,

Grover Furr

So, some of their lives may actually have been SAVED, since they certainly would have been defeated by the Red Army if allowed to defect (believing they would be on the victorious side of the nazis).

[RNK]

Excellent writing, Marcel.

Sadly, I don't think I was able to take it all in for its whole worth. I started reading it, and then came to the quote by FW where he allegedly criticizes to USSR for "racist" policies. Where does he get off? He's only member of an online forum where the majority support the systematic murder of tens of millions of "inferior" races. You'd think he'd atleast have the intelligence to not come off as so completely and utterly contradictory.

I guess it's my own fault for expecting some level of intelligence from them. Anyway, excellent read.

[Idola Mentis]

Huh. I don't see much point in defending one authoritarian state over another. Sure, the nazis are in a crazy-box all by themselves. But regardless of the ideology being a crazed perversion of socialism, nationalism and positivist science (nazis), or the paranoia of an unsufficiently restrained leader gone off his hinges (Stalin) people were still brutally murdered by state servants.

Of course they'll try to stick "red" Stalin with as much shit as possible to get attention of the equally nasty stuff from the blue and brown side. It's pretty telling that they have to lie and exaggerate his atrocities to make him seem "worse" than their own atrocities. It's mostly empty rhetorics; unless they seriously believe each murder in the name of revolution cancels out one by counterrevolution.

Scary thought. They might just believe that.

But there's little point in denying that Stalin and his colleagues were pretty damn dirty to begin with. Machiavellian dictators tend to be, since their primary interest is perpetuating power and control. The colour of their ideology is just planting tulips around the crematorium. How does arguing with the nazis over which colour tulips works best to cover the bloodshed get us anywhere?

[Comrade Marcel]

Idola Mentis, that's your opinion and that is fine. What I am concerned with are the facts and the falsities being perpetrated. This has been done so intensely in the past half century, especially, because the capitalist class realized that Stalin was the real deal.

Of course it is important to defend history. Why would you what fascists to dominate "scholarly" circles?

[Comrade Marcel]

White has wrote a reply now, but he decided to ignore most of my points and is now using mostly wikipedia as a source to recycle the same crap he had already charged in the first place. So most of the sources are unreliable, making it a pain to reply to. I will take it up on the weekend or something.

http://www.***************/forum/show...en-372119.html

[RNK]

His main source of "proof" is wikipedia? That's sad. Not surprising, though. If it backs up his claims, I'm sure he'd be willing to accept anything as truth.

[socialistpunk]

I do Beleive that you have pretty much disproved what FW was saying about the soviet union but Stalin did murder people. In his gulags which is only because of Stalins paranoia and distrust of non-communist elements in Russia at the time.