Thread: Bolshevik Revolution

Results 1 to 20 of 81

  1. #1
    Join Date Oct 2005
    Location san luis obispo, ca
    Posts 2,974
    Organisation
    Kasama Project
    Rep Power 16

    Default

    I want to learn more about the October Revolution, Lenin and Trotsky's roles, etc. I basically want a detailed discussion into the causes of the revolution, as well as the immediate outcomes, and how all this led to Stalin and state-capitalism. I invite anarchists and "Leninists", but please don't turn this into a sectarian battle.

    Also, does anyone know any good, non-sectarian books on the Bolshevik Revolution? Thanks
    Kasama Project- We Are the Ones

    South Asia Revolution - Information Project

    Kasama Threads

    "Settle your quarrels, come together, understand the reality of our situation, understand that fascism is already here, that people are dying who could be saved, that generations more will live poor butchered half-lives if you fail to act. Do what must be done, discover your humanity and your love in revolution." - George Jackson
  2. #2
    Join Date Apr 2006
    Posts 2,472
    Rep Power 15

    Default

    The Soviet Union wasn't "State Capitalist" under Stalin. Trotsky's role in the Bolshevik Revolution was to be in charge of the Red Army. Stalin, Lenin, Kamenev, and Zinoviev were part of the "political centre" which "directed" the revolution.

    Have you tried 10 Days that Shook the World by John Reed? I haven't read it yet as I've been reading more theoretical shit lately to deepen my understanding of Leninism and Mao Zedong Thought however it is known as THE primary source and epic novel regarding the bolshevik revolution.
    "Love Other Human Beings like you would Yourself"

    -- Ho Chi Minh

    "We Don't Care who gets elected, because whoever it is will be Overthrown"

    -- Subcomandante Marcos
  3. #3
    Join Date May 2005
    Location United States
    Posts 2,992
    Rep Power 18

    Default

    Ten Days That Shook the World is a fucking brillant book.

    Every leftist should read it.
  4. #4
    Join Date Jan 2005
    Location Michigan, U$A
    Posts 353
    Organisation
    League for the Fifth International
    Rep Power 14

    Default

    Stalin, Lenin, Kamenev, and Zinoviev were part of the "political centre" which "directed" the revolution.
    Stalinist bullshit. The "Military Revolutionary Center" which "directed the revolution" is a myth that was used to find some grand role for Stalin. The committee you are refering to was just a sub-committee of the Military Revolutionary Council, headed by...Trotsky!

    Also, does anyone know any good, non-sectarian books on the Bolshevik Revolution?
    I have heard that Trotsky's The History of The Russian Revolution is a good and relatively unbiased account of the revolution.
  5. #5
    Join Date Jul 2006
    Location Somewhere in hell
    Posts 622
    Organisation
    Unorganized Proletarian
    Rep Power 15

    Default

    Originally posted by RedLenin@ March 7, 2007, 11:55 pm
    The committee you are refering to was just a sub-committee of the Military Revolutionary Council, headed by...Trotsky!
    As I recall, it was Trotsky who held the opinion that the Bolsheviks were not to take armed action immediately, but rather wait until the Second All-Russia Congress of Soviets was convened, while Lenin argued for immediate seizure of political power. If Trotsky's strategy had been adopted, the Great October Socialist Revolution would have never materialized but would have resulted in failure due to poor timing and carelessness. Lenin discusses the "waiting" in The Crisis Has Matured, and Meeting of the Central Committee, Oct. 10 (23) 1917.
  6. #6
    Join Date Jul 2005
    Location Coimbatore,Tamilnadu Indi
    Posts 1,305
    Organisation
    The New Socialist Alternative - Indian Section of CWI
    Rep Power 15

    Default

    Originally posted by CriticiseEverthingAlways+--> (CriticiseEverthingAlways)As I recall, it was Trotsky who held the opinion that the Bolsheviks were not to take armed action immediately, but rather wait until the Second All-Russia Congress of Soviets was convened, while Lenin argued for immediate seizure of political power. If Trotsky's strategy had been adopted, the Great October Socialist Revolution would have never materialized but would have resulted in failure due to poor timing and carelessness[/b]


    That is the most weakest argument provided to diminish role of Trotsky in the revolution. Only people who opposed insurrection even on the eve of the October Revolution were Zinonev and Kamenev. Before July days only Lenin and Trotsky were in total opposition to Kerensky.

    Originally posted by LeftyHenry+--> (LeftyHenry)as I've been reading more theoretical shit lately to deepen my understanding of Leninism and Mao Zedong Thought however it is known as THE primary source and epic novel regarding the bolshevik revolution.[/b]


    Everything else is correct except that it is not a Novel.

    hastalavictoria
    @

    I want to learn more about the October Revolution, Lenin and Trotsky's roles, etc. I basically want a detailed discussion into the causes of the revolution, as well as the immediate outcomes,
    For a material analysis of those events you have to go for the The History of Russian Revolution. which is written in three volumes.Another good work is Lessons of October which is written as early as 1924 when Trotsky was still commissar of defense and railways in Soviet Union. It is draws more or less basic analysis and should be treated as a precursor to the History of Russian Revolution. John reed's Ten days that shook the world is good but it does not provide any material analysis of events. It is more like a diary of events.

    The Russian Revolution by Rosa Luxemburg gives a reasonable analysis of Russian Revolution. sHe is both supportive of it and Criticises Bolsheviks in some of the Theoretical and tactical decisions.

    Russian Tragedy another work by Rosa Luxemburg in which she analyses Brest-Litovsk Treaty.

    hastalavictoria

    and how all this led to Stalin and state-capitalism.
    I do not agree with state capitalism theory as it is totally vague and it proponents never give how they have analysed the Soviet Union come to that conclusion Related Thread read the posts by Severian and Luis Henrique.

    But certainly Soviet is not a workers state and it is also not a capitalist state. In Revoltion Betrayed Trotsky had made an analysis with which I agree with.
    It is possible to build gigantic factories according to a ready-made Western pattern by bureaucratic command – although, to be sure, at triple the normal cost. But the farther you go, the more the economy runs into the problem of quality, which slips out of the hands of a bureaucracy like a shadow. The Soviet products are as though branded with the gray label of indifference. Under a nationalized economy, quality demands a democracy of producers and consumers, freedom of criticism and initiative – conditions incompatible with a totalitarian regime of fear, lies and flattery.
    -Trotsky
    Marx & Engels ! Lenin ! Trotsky
  7. #7
    Join Date Jul 2006
    Location Somewhere in hell
    Posts 622
    Organisation
    Unorganized Proletarian
    Rep Power 15

    Default

    Originally posted by g.ram@ March 8, 2007, 08:39 am
    That is the most weakest argument provided to diminish role of Trotsky in the revolution. Only people who opposed insurrection even on the eve of the October Revolution were Zinonev and Kamenev. Before July days only Lenin and Trotsky were in total opposition to Kerensky.
    Is it really? Those two pamphlets by Lenin were compiled in October of 1917, just days before the revolution took place. And it shows that Trotsky, while not openly opposing armed action like Zinoviev and Kamenev did, in deed still advocated waiting rather than acting right at the moment revolution was needed. This is a fact neglected in the Trot account of history (or Trotskyite "school of falsification," to borrow one of their own slogans which they so diligently apply against Leninist histories despite their poor acquaintance with the facts) when they claim that their great leader was head of the military revolutionary council. Since you have decided to dismiss this concrete fact as "weak argument" in favor of dogma, you've proven you're not going to argue the matter with logic but with extreme subjectivity.
  8. #8
    Join Date Jul 2005
    Location Coimbatore,Tamilnadu Indi
    Posts 1,305
    Organisation
    The New Socialist Alternative - Indian Section of CWI
    Rep Power 15

    Default

    Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways+March 08, 2007 08:32 pm--> (CriticizeEverythingAlways @ March 08, 2007 08:32 pm)
    g.ram
    @ March 8, 2007, 08:39 am
    That is the most weakest argument provided to diminish role of Trotsky in the revolution. Only people who opposed insurrection even on the eve of the October Revolution were Zinonev and Kamenev. Before July days only Lenin and Trotsky were in total opposition to Kerensky.
    Is it really? Those two pamphlets by Lenin were compiled in October of 1917, just days before the revolution took place. And it shows that Trotsky, while not openly opposing armed action like Zinoviev and Kamenev did, in deed still advocated waiting rather than acting right at the moment revolution was needed. This is a fact neglected in the Trot account of history (or Trotskyite "school of falsification," to borrow one of their own slogans which they so diligently apply against Leninist histories despite their poor acquaintance with the facts) when they claim that their great leader was head of the military revolutionary council. Since you have decided to dismiss this concrete fact as "weak argument" in favor of dogma, you've proven you're not going to argue the matter with logic but with extreme subjectivity. [/b]
    Yes, that is said by a supporter of a man who supported Kerensky&#39;s government, refused to publish April theses in pravda when Lenin was still in Switzerland and banned the first hand Information of John Reed&#39;s(who was dead even before expulsion of Trotsky)work just because it told events that did not fit in to his version. <_<


    Edit: Note:
    Well this thread starter appealed not to turn this in to a sectarian shitfest. So this will be my last response to you &#33;
    It is possible to build gigantic factories according to a ready-made Western pattern by bureaucratic command – although, to be sure, at triple the normal cost. But the farther you go, the more the economy runs into the problem of quality, which slips out of the hands of a bureaucracy like a shadow. The Soviet products are as though branded with the gray label of indifference. Under a nationalized economy, quality demands a democracy of producers and consumers, freedom of criticism and initiative – conditions incompatible with a totalitarian regime of fear, lies and flattery.
    -Trotsky
    Marx & Engels ! Lenin ! Trotsky
  9. #9
    Join Date Aug 2005
    Posts 9,222
    Rep Power 93

    Default

    Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways@March 08, 2007 03:02 pm
    Is it really? Those two pamphlets by Lenin were compiled in October of 1917, just days before the revolution took place. And it shows that Trotsky, while not openly opposing armed action like Zinoviev and Kamenev did, in deed still advocated waiting rather than acting right at the moment revolution was needed. This is a fact neglected in the Trot account of history (or Trotskyite "school of falsification," to borrow one of their own slogans which they so diligently apply against Leninist histories despite their poor acquaintance with the facts) when they claim that their great leader was head of the military revolutionary council. Since you have decided to dismiss this concrete fact as "weak argument" in favor of dogma, you&#39;ve proven you&#39;re not going to argue the matter with logic but with extreme subjectivity.
    So, Zinoviev, Kamenev and Trotsky were counterrevolutionaries. And I suppose Bukharin was, too. How many other counterrevolutionaries were in the Bolshevik party CC in 1917, and how did a party controlled by counterrevolutionaries managed to lead a revolution?

    Luís Henrique
    The world is not as it is, but as it is constructed.

    Falsely attributed to Lenin
  10. #10
    Join Date Jul 2006
    Location Somewhere in hell
    Posts 622
    Organisation
    Unorganized Proletarian
    Rep Power 15

    Default

    Originally posted by g.ram+ March 8, 2007, 10:52 a.m.--> (g.ram &#064; March 8, 2007, 10:52 a.m.)Yes, that is said by a supporter of a man who supported Kerensky&#39;s government, refused to publish April theses in pravda when Lenin was still in Switzerland and banned the first hand Information of John Reed&#39;s(who was dead even before expulsion of Trotsky)work just because it told events that did not fit in to his version. [/b]


    Here we go, let&#39;s use the infamous strategy of changing the subject when the facts do not suit us to another topic in the hopes of engaging in endless, tiring circle debate to scare away the "Stalinists" with "facts." Sorry, you can&#39;t dodge this concrete fact so easily.

    Originally posted by Luís Henrique+ March 8, 2007, 11:01 a.m.--> (Luís Henrique &#064; March 8, 2007, 11:01 a.m.) So, Zinoviev, Kamenev and Trotsky were counterrevolutionaries. And I suppose Bukharin was, too. How many other counterrevolutionaries were in the Bolshevik party CC in 1917, and how did a party controlled by counterrevolutionaries managed to lead a revolution?[/b]


    People are judged by their actions. Zinoviev and Kamenev did not want armed action, and Trotsky wanted to delay action until the Congress, something which Lenin knew full well was unacceptable due to the material conditions present and the impending situation opening the window for revolution. To wait would have cost the Party its victory. This is not about "show trials," which is where you&#39;re inevitably trying to steer this discussion.

    Since you have not appeared to have read the particular information in detail by Lenin about the tactics used by the above three, allow me to enlighten you to clear away any misunderstandings you might have by quoting from those two pamphlets:

    Originally posted by [email protected] the Crisis has Matured
    What, then, is to be done? We must aussprechen was ist, "state the facts", admit the truth that there is a tendency, or an opinion, in our Central Committee and among the leaders of our Party which favours waiting for the Congress of Soviets, and is opposed to taking power immediately, is opposed to an immediate insurrection. That tendency, or opinion, must be overcome.[48]

    Otherwise, the Bolsheviks will cover themselves with eternal shame and destroy themselves as a party.

    For to miss such a moment and to "wait" for the Congress of Soviets would be utter idiocy, or sheer treachery.


    It would be sheer treachery to the German workers. Surely we should not wait until their revolution begins. In that case even the Lieberdans would be in favour of "supporting" it. But it cannot begin as long as Kerensky, Kishkin and Co. are in power.

    It would be sheer treachery to the peasants. To allow the peasant revolt to be suppressed when we control the Soviets

    page 83

    of both capitals would be to lose, and justly lose, every ounce of the peasants&#39; confidence. In the eyes of the peasants we would be putting ourselves on a level with the Lieberdans and other scoundrels.

    To "wait" for the Congress of Soviets would be utter idiocy, for it would mean losing weeks at a time when weeks and even days decide everything. It would mean faint-heartedly renouncing power, for on November 1-2 it will have become impossible to take power (both politically and technically, since the Cossacks would be mobilised for the day of the insurrection so foolishly "appointed"[*]).

    To "wait" for the Congress of Soviets is idiocy, for the Congress will give nothing, and can give nothing &#33;

    "Moral" importance? Strange indeed, to talk of the "importance" of resolutions and conversations with the Lieberdans when we know that the Soviets support the peasants and that the peasant revolt is being suppressed &#33; We would be reducing the Soviets to the status of wretched debating parlours. First defeat Kerensky, then call the Congress.

    The Bolsheviks are now guaranteed the success of the insurrection: (1) we can** (if we do not "wait" for the Soviet Congress) launch a surprise attack from three points -- from Petrograd, from Moscow and from the Baltic fleet; (2) we have slogans that guarantee us support -- down with the government that is suppressing the revolt of the peasants against the landowners&#33; (3) we have a majority in the country ; (4) the disorganisation among the Mensheviks and the Socialist-Revolutionaries is complete; (5) we are technically in a position to take power in Moscow (where the start might even be made, so as to catch the enemy unawares); (6 we have thousands of armed workers and soldiers in Petrograd who could at once seize the Winter Palace, the General Staff building, the telephone exchange
    * To "convene" the Congress of Soviets for October 20 in order to decide upon "taking power" -- how does that differ from foolishly "appointing" an insurrection? It is possible to take power now, whereas on October 20-29 you will not be given a chance to.
    ** What has the Party done to study the disposition of the troops, etc? What has it done to conduct the insurrection as an art? Mere talk in the Central Executive Committee, and so on&#33;

    page 84

    and the large printing presses. Nothing will be able to drive us out, while agitational work in the army will be such as to make it impossible to combat this government of peace, of land for the peasants, and so forth.

    If we were to attack at once, suddenly, from three points, Petrograd, Moscow and the Baltic fleet, the chances are a hundred to one that we would succeed with smaller sacrifices than on July 3-5, because the troops will not advance against a government of peace. Even though Kerensky already has "loyal" cavalry, etc., in Petrograd, if we were to attack from two sides, he would be compelled to surrender since we enjoy the sympathy of the army. If with such chances as we have at present we do not take power, then all talk of transferring the power to the Soviets becomes a lie.

    To refrain from taking power now, to "wait", to indulge in talk in the Central Executive Committee, to confine ourselves to "fighting for the organ" (of the Soviet), "fighting for the Congress", is to doom the revolution to failure.

    In view of the fact that the Central Committee has even left unanswered the persistent demands I have been making for such a policy ever since the beginning of the Democratic Conference, in view of the fact that the Central Organ is deleting from my articles all references to such glaring errors on the part of the Bolsheviks as the shameful decision to participate in the Pre-parliament, the admission of Mensheviks to the Presidium of the Soviet, etc., etc. -- I am compelled to regard this as a "subtle" hint at the unwillingness of the Central Committee even to consider this question, a subtle hint that I should keep my mouth shut, and as a proposal for me to retire.

    I am compelled to tender my resignation from the Central Committee, which I hereby do, reserving for myself freedom to campaign among the rank and file of the Party and at the Party Congress.

    For it is my profound conviction that if we "wait" for the Congress of Soviets and let the present moment pass, we shall ruin the revolution.

    N. Lenin
    Originally posted by footnote to Lenin&#39;s The Crisis Has Matured
    The reference is to the attitude of Kamenev, Zinoviev, Trotsky and their followers. Kamenev and Zinoviev opposed Lenin&#39;s plan for an armed uprising, declaring that the working class of Russia was incapable of carrying out a socialist revolution. They slid down to the Menshevik position of demanding a bourgeois republic. Trotsky insisted on a postponement of the uprising until the Second All-Russia Congress of Soviets, which meant frustrating the insurrection because this gave the Provisional Government a chance to concentrate its forces on the opening day of the Congress and crush the uprising.
    Meeting of the Central Committee
    @
    Comrade Lenin maintains that a sort of indifference to the question of insurrection has been noticeable since the beginning of September. But this is impermissible if we are issuing the slogan of the seizure of power by the Soviets in all seriousness. It is therefore high time to pay attention to the technical aspect of the question. Apparently a lot of time has already been lost.

    Nevertheless the question is an urgent one, and the decisive moment is near.

    The international situation is such that we must take the initiative.

    What is being done to surrender territory as far as Narva, and to surrender Petrograd makes it still more imperative for us to take decisive action.

    The political situation is also working impressively in this direction. Decisive action on our part on July 3, 4 and 5 would have failed because we did not have the majority behind us. Since then we have made tremendous progress.

    Absenteeism and indifference on the part of the masses is due to their being tired of words and resolutions.

    We now have the majority behind us. Politically, the situation is fully ripe for taking power.

    page 189

    The agrarian movement is also developing in that direction, for it is obvious that extreme effort would be needed to stem that movement. The slogan of the transfer of all land has become the general slogan of the peasants. The political situation, therefore, is mature. We must speak of the technical aspect. That is the crux of the matter. Nevertheless we, like the defencists, are inclined to regard the systematic preparation of an uprising as something in the nature of a political sin.

    It is senseless to wait for the Constituent Assembly that will obviously not be on our side, for this will only make our task more involved.

    The regional congress and the proposal from Minsk[79] must be used for the beginning of decisive action.
    footnote to the Meeting of the Central Committee
    The Meeting of the Central Committee of the R.S.D.L.P. on October 10 (23), 1917, was the first one Lenin attended after his return to Petrograd from Vyborg. Sverdlov was in the chair. Lenin gave a report on the current situation. The Central Committee adopted the resolution motioned by Lenin who proposed immediate preparations for an armed uprising. Only Zinoviev and Kamenev voted against the proposal. Trotsky abstained, but he held that it had to be postponed until the Second Congress of Soviets, which in practice meant bungling the insurrection and allowing the Provisional Government to pull up its forces to crush the uprising on the day the Congress opened. The Central Committee rebuffed the capitulants. The October 10 meeting of the Central Committee is of tremendous historical importance. The resolution on the uprising adopted by 10 to 2 became the Bolshevik Party&#39;s directive in starting immediate preparations for an insurrection. To direct the insurrection, the Central Committee set up a Political Bureau headed by Lenin.
    There are the facts for all to see. It is a fact that Leon Trotsky wanted to wait until the holding of the Congress, while Lenin advocated immediate action. Once again, I stand by my earlier comment that had Trotsky&#39;s strategy been put into practice, the October Revolution would have been a failure.
  11. #11
    Join Date Nov 2005
    Location Ireland
    Posts 817
    Rep Power 24

    Default

    From the material you posted CEA it seems you are correct,but to be honest i dont think its a big deal that Trotsky disagreed with Lenin.After all they disagreed on other things aswell one that comes to mind is the trade unions but im sure there are others.

    Also im sure Trotsky recognised that he was wrong afterwards.
    "But like Trotskyites working with fascists in the USSR to plant no warning bombs to rip out the lungs of Soviet children from their tiny rib cages you will probably choose to turn a blind eye." - RedSunRising

    RIP tech,you will be missed

    Marxist Book Resource
  12. #12
    Join Date Jun 2005
    Location the occupied 6
    Posts 2,380
    Organisation
    marxist of some sort
    Rep Power 20

    Default

    Trotsky&#39;s History is incredible detailed and an invaluable analysis. State Capitalism is a false theory developed and then rejected by the South African Trotskyist Ted Grant. I&#39;ll write more later.
    “It is not true that people stop pursuing dreams because they grow old, they grow old because they stop pursuing dreams.” - Gabriel Garcia Marquez

    "What forces can bring the national question to a successful conclusion? Only the working class can do so." - Ta Power
  13. #13
    Join Date May 2006
    Location The Hague
    Posts 1,366
    Organisation
    Spanish Socialist Worker's Party
    Rep Power 15

    Default

    I have heard that Trotsky&#39;s The History of The Russian Revolution is a good and relatively unbiased account of the revolution.
    It is a good account, but saying it&#39;s unbiased... that&#39;s just overdoing it.
    "El ideal del P.S.O.E. es la completa emancipación de la clase trabajadora; Es decir, la abolición de todas las clases sociales y su declaración y conversión en una sola clase de trabajadores, dueños del fruto de su trabajo, libres, iguales, honrados e inteligentes." -Pablo Iglesias (founder of PSOE and UGT)

    "Quienes contraponen liberalismo y socialismo, o no conocen el primero o no saben los verdaderos objetivos del segundo." -Pablo Iglesias

    Art. 1.º España es una República democrática de trabajadores de toda clase, que se
    organiza en régimen de Libertad y de Justicia.
  14. #14
    Join Date Jun 2005
    Location the occupied 6
    Posts 2,380
    Organisation
    marxist of some sort
    Rep Power 20

    Default

    Sure Trotsky wasn&#39;t for immediate seizure of power. To say he was "opposed" to it though is just plain dumb though. The epitaph of Stalinism I suppose...

    but saying it&#39;s unbiased... that&#39;s just overdoing it.
    To quote the Trotman himself:
    This work will not rely in any degree upon personal recollections. The circumstance that the author was a participant in the events does not free him from the obligation to base his exposition upon historically verified documents. The author speaks of himself, in so far as that is demanded by the course of events, in the third person. And that is not a mere literary form: the subjective tone, inevitable in autobiographies or memoirs, is not permissible in a work of history.

    However, the fact that the author did participate in the struggle naturally makes easier his understanding, not only of the psychology of the forces in action, both individual and collective, but also of the inner connection of events. This advantage will give positive results only if one condition is observed: that he does not rely upon the testimony of his own memory either in trivial details or in important matters, either in questions of fact or questions of motive and mood. The author believes that in so far as in him lies he has fulfilled this condition.

    There remains the question of the political position of the author, who stands as a historian upon the same viewpoint upon which he stood as a participant in the events. The reader, of course, is not obliged to share the political views of the author, which the latter on his side has no reason to conceal. But the reader does have the right to demand that a historical work should not be the defence of a political position, but an internally well-founded portrayal of the actual process of the revolution. A historical work only then completely fulfils the mission when events unfold upon its pages in their full natural necessity.

    For this, is it necessary to have the so-called historian’s "impartiality"? Nobody has yet clearly explained what this impartiality consists of. The often quoted words of Clemenceau that it is necessary to take a revolution "en bloc," as a whole — are at the best a clever evasion. How can you take as a whole a thing whose essence consists in a split? Clemenceau’s aphorism was dictated partly by shame for his too resolute ancestors, partly by embarrassment before their shades.

    One of the reactionary and therefore fashionable historians in contemporary France, L. Madelin, slandering in his drawing-room fashion the great revolution — that is, the birth of his own nation — asserts that "the historian ought to stand upon the wall of a threatened city, and behold at the same time the besiegers and the besieged": only in this way, it seems, can he achieve a "conciliatory justice.” However, the words of Madelin himself testify that if he climbs out on the wall dividing the two camps, it is only in the character of a reconnoiterer for the reaction. It is well that he is concerned only with war camps of the past: in a time of revolution standing on the wall involves great danger. Moreover, in times of alarm the priests of "conciliatory justice" are usually found sitting on the inside of four walls waiting to see which side will win.

    The serious and critical reader will not want a treacherous impartiality, which offers him a cup of conciliation with a well-settled poison of reactionary hate at the bottom, but a scientific conscientiousness, which for its sympathies and antipathies — open and undisguised — seeks support in an honest study of the facts, a determination of their real connections, an exposure of the causal laws of their movement. That is the only possible historic objectivism, and moreover it is amply sufficient, for it is verified and attested not by the good intentions of the historian, for which only he himself can vouch, but the natural laws revealed by him of the historic process itself.
    Hasta I recommend ordering the book or buying/getting a lend of it from a Socialist grouping rather than attempting it online...IT&#39;S FRICKIN&#39; HUGE&#33;&#33;&#33;

    I&#39;m really sorry for derailing this btw, I will definitely give my own opinion and analysis in a short while, I just have a lot of work. Perhaps a study group might be a better idea?
    “It is not true that people stop pursuing dreams because they grow old, they grow old because they stop pursuing dreams.” - Gabriel Garcia Marquez

    "What forces can bring the national question to a successful conclusion? Only the working class can do so." - Ta Power
  15. #15
    Join Date Oct 2005
    Location san luis obispo, ca
    Posts 2,974
    Organisation
    Kasama Project
    Rep Power 16

    Default

    So, like, help me out comrades. Thats the point of this thread.
    Kasama Project- We Are the Ones

    South Asia Revolution - Information Project

    Kasama Threads

    "Settle your quarrels, come together, understand the reality of our situation, understand that fascism is already here, that people are dying who could be saved, that generations more will live poor butchered half-lives if you fail to act. Do what must be done, discover your humanity and your love in revolution." - George Jackson
  16. #16
    Join Date May 2006
    Location The Hague
    Posts 1,366
    Organisation
    Spanish Socialist Worker's Party
    Rep Power 15

    Default

    To quote the Trotman himself:
    It&#39;s obvious that he would say that. I can also claim that my account of something that happened in the past is unbiased. Besides, when you read the book, you tend to find that there are many instances of bias. I&#39;ll post some of them later.
    "El ideal del P.S.O.E. es la completa emancipación de la clase trabajadora; Es decir, la abolición de todas las clases sociales y su declaración y conversión en una sola clase de trabajadores, dueños del fruto de su trabajo, libres, iguales, honrados e inteligentes." -Pablo Iglesias (founder of PSOE and UGT)

    "Quienes contraponen liberalismo y socialismo, o no conocen el primero o no saben los verdaderos objetivos del segundo." -Pablo Iglesias

    Art. 1.º España es una República democrática de trabajadores de toda clase, que se
    organiza en régimen de Libertad y de Justicia.
  17. #17
    Join Date Apr 2003
    Location USA
    Posts 5,706
    Rep Power 21

    Default

    Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways@March 07, 2007 10:15 pm
    As I recall, it was Trotsky who held the opinion that the Bolsheviks were not to take armed action immediately, but rather wait until the Second All-Russia Congress of Soviets was convened, while Lenin argued for immediate seizure of political power. If Trotsky&#39;s strategy had been adopted, the Great October Socialist Revolution would have never materialized but would have resulted in failure due to poor timing and carelessness.
    Trotsky&#39;s policy was followed&#33; The Bolsheviks did wait for the Second Congress...only Kerensky struck shortly before the Congress, in a feeble way, by closing a Bolshevik paper. The October insurrection developed under defensive slogans of reacting to that attack.

    The insurrection began on Oct. 25, the day before the Congress met.

    Do you seriously not know that the insurrection was still underway when the Congress opened, and the Winter Palace still hadn&#39;t fallen?

    Read 10 Days That Shook the World, or any other account of how the insurrection actually occurred&#33; For that matter, look at the resolutions adopted in the Central Committee meetings you&#39;ve been quoting. That&#39;s Trotsky&#39;s position, not Lenin&#39;s, in the resolutions.

    You quoted Lenin&#39;s The Crisis Has Matured In it, he proposes a tactic that obviously is not the one which was actually followed: "The Bolsheviks are now guaranteed the success of the insurrection: (1) we can[7] (if we do not "wait" for the Soviet Congress) launch a surprise attack from three points—from Petrograd, from Moscow and from the Baltic fleet;"

    There was no surprise attack, the Baltic sailors were brought in only after the insurrection was well underway.

    You also quote Lenin:
    The regional congress and the proposal from Minsk[79] must be used for the beginning of decisive action.
    Well, the regional congress (Northern Congress of Soviets) came and went (roughly Oct 10-15, old style), and no "beginning of decisive action." Nothing came of the proposal for a Minsk insurrection either.

    See also Lenin&#39;s "advice of an onlooker:"
    here:
    "I am writing these lines on October 8 and have little hope that they will reach Petrograd comrades by the 9th. It is possible that they will arrive too late, since the Congress of the Northern Soviets has been fixed for October 10." That&#39;s how immediately he was proposing action. Of course, it didn&#39;t happen.

    "Applied to Russia and to October 1917, this means: a simultaneous offensive on Petrograd, as sudden and as rapid as possible, which must without fail be carried out from within and from without, from the working-class quarters and from Finland, from Revel and from Kronstadt, an offensive of the entire navy, the concentration of a gigantic superiority of forces over the 15,000 or 20,000 (perhaps more) of our "bourgeois guard" (the officers&#39; schools), our "Vendee troops" (part of the Cossacks), etc."

    Obviously this proposes a much larger role of forces from Finland and the Baltic fleet than actually happened. He even proposes at one point to "to encircle and cut off Petrograd;".

    Lenin&#39;s letter to Smilga:
    "We set "dates"(October 20, the Congress of Soviets—is it not ridiculous to put it off so long? Is it not ridiculous to rely on that?)." Well, it was put off longer than that, til October 25.

    "Now about your role. It seems to me we can have completely at our disposal only the troops in Finland and the Baltic fleet and only they can play a serious military role. I think you must make most of your high position, shift all the petty routine work to assistants and secretaries and not waste time on "resolutions"; give all your attention to the military preparation of the troops in Finland plus the fleet for the impending overthrow of Kerensky. "

    Amazing&#33; "It seems to me we can have completely at our disposal only the troops in Finland and the Baltic fleet "&#33; No, not if its the Petrograd Soviet calling the insurrection, and not just the Bolshevik Party (or maybe Lenin was thinking part of the Bolshevik Party might have to act without the Central Committee, which would explain why he was writing to Smilga to ask him to start organizing troops.)

    You&#39;re so used to quoting Lenin like an infallible Bible, it never occurs to you to wonder if Lenin&#39;s proposals were actually carried out&#33; To avoid quoting people as if they were Prophets of God, it helps to place their statements in historical context...but for that you have to know some history.

    To alter your statement:
    If Lenin&#39;s strategy had been adopted, the Great October Socialist Revolution might still have materialized, or the earlier and less broad-based insurrection might have been crushed, but we&#39;ll never know, since it didn&#39;t happen&#33;

    ***

    Trotsky&#39;s History of the Russian Revolution is the best and best-documented work on the subject, respected even by academic historians. If you want a shorter version, I recommend his "Lessons of October."

    One good book by an academic, about an important part of the Russian Revolution, is "Red Guards and Workers Militia in the Russian Revolution" by Rex A. Wade. Very factually informative.
  18. #18
    Join Date Apr 2003
    Location USA
    Posts 5,706
    Rep Power 21

    Default

    Originally posted by RedHerman@March 09, 2007 02:33 am
    To quote the Trotman himself:
    It&#39;s obvious that he would say that. I can also claim that my account of something that happened in the past is unbiased.
    Trotsky isn&#39;t claiming that. He says the opposite: "The serious and critical reader will not want a treacherous impartiality, which offers him a cup of conciliation with a well-settled poison of reactionary hate at the bottom, but a scientific conscientiousness, which for its sympathies and antipathies — open and undisguised — seeks support in an honest study of the facts, a determination of their real connections, an exposure of the causal laws of their movement."

    Nobody is unbiased, but some people are up-front about their biases and try to honestly investigate the facts.

    You&#39;re under no obligation to read the posts you&#39;re responding to, but it might help your responses make some sense.
  19. #19
    Join Date Sep 2005
    Location Perfidious Ireland
    Posts 4,275
    Rep Power 67

    Default

    Originally posted by hastalavictoria@March 08, 2007 02:57 am
    Also, does anyone know any good, non-sectarian books on the Bolshevik Revolution? Thanks
    Ten Days is an excellent work but its really one of journalism rather than history. Its biased and factually incorrect in places but its the best way to get the feeling and atmosphere of the Revolution.

    For more academic works I&#39;d recommend Sheila Fitzpatrick&#39;s The Russian Revolution and Orlando Figes&#39; A People&#39;s Tragedy. The former is very concise but gives a good overview of the Revolution, plus it covers the complete revolution into the 1930s. Figes&#39; book gives an excellent reading of both the events and the Tsarist state but falls down on placing the Bolsheviks&#39; actions within the context of their ideals.
    March at the head of the ideas of your century and those ideas will follow and sustain you. March behind them and they will drag you along. March against them and they will overthrow you.
    Napoleon III
  20. #20
    Join Date Jul 2006
    Location Somewhere in hell
    Posts 622
    Organisation
    Unorganized Proletarian
    Rep Power 15

    Default

    Originally posted by Severian@ March 9, 2007, 05:29 am
    The insurrection began on Oct. 25, the day before the Congress met.
    You forgot to add that the reason why the insurrection began the day before the Congress met was because Trotsky at a meeting of the Petrograd Soviet while in his overconfident tone of boasting happened to in the process reveal the date which the Bolsheviks were planning the armed uprising to the enemy. This happened after the letters which you quoted. Hence why the insurrection was moved to a day earlier before the Congress.

    I reproduce a section of a letter by Lenin to dispel any doubts about this fact from Letter to the Central Committee

    No self-respecting party can tolerate strike-breaklng and blacklegs in its midst. That is obvious. The more we reflect upon Zinoviev&#39;s and Kamenev&#39;s statement in the non-Party press, the more self-evident it becomes that their action is strike-breaking in the full sense of the term. Kamenev&#39;s evasion at the meeting of the Petrograd Soviet is something really despicable. He is, don&#39;t you see, in full agreement with Trotsky. But is it so difficult to understand that in the face of the enemy, Trotsky could not have said, he had no right to say, and should not have said more than he did? Is it so difficult to understand that it is a duty to the Party which has concealed its decision from the enemy (on the necessity for an armed uprising, on the fact that the time for it is fully ripe, on the thorough preparations to be made for it, etc.), and it is this decision that makes it obligatory in public statements to fasten not only the "blame", but also the initiative upon the adversary? Only a child could fail to understand that. Kamenev&#39;s evasion is a sheer fraud. The same must be said of Zinoviev&#39;s evasion, at least of his letter of "justification" (written, I think, to the Central Organ), which is the only document I have seen (for, as to a dissenting opinion, "an alleged dissenting opinion", which has been trumpeted in the bourgeois press, I, a member of the Central Committee, have to this very day seen nothing of it). Among Zinoviev&#39;s "arguments" there is this: Lenin, he says, sent out his letters "before any decisions were adopted", and you did not protest.
    You&#39;re so used to quoting Lenin like an infallible Bible
    I do not look at Lenin as an "infallible Bible," as you colorfully illustrate. I know he made mistakes and that he was human. If you had this conception that this is how I view Lenin- as some kind of infallible leader- you are quite mistaken. But I don&#39;t pay lip-service to his writings or ideas either.

    Nobody is unbiased, but some people are up-front about their biases and try to honestly investigate the facts.
    Trotsky is not one of them. Comparing his polemics to what others wrote and what actually took place in the U.S.S.R. shows that Trotsky did anything but "honestly investigate the facts," as you put it. No, Trotsky must be studied with a very serious critical eye and scrutinized before being taken at face-value.

Similar Threads

  1. On the Bolshevik Myth
    By abbielives! in forum History
    Replies: 118
    Last Post: 7th July 2007, 21:52
  2. Bolshevik Theorists
    By nickdlc in forum Learning
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 3rd July 2006, 23:24
  3. bolshevik
    By Global_Justice in forum Learning
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 17th February 2006, 12:57
  4. The American Bolshevik
    By The American Bolshevik in forum Introductions
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 1st June 2005, 20:56
  5. Bolshevik revolution funding
    By j.guevara in forum Opposing Ideologies
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 4th February 2004, 01:44

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Tags for this Thread