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I see what your saying, but getting your ass kicked can help you stop and think 'hmmm maybe being a racist nazi bastard IS wrong' so a beating is actually a POSITIVE thing lol, theyre nazi's, who fucking cares if theyre going through a phase or not, they still deserve what everyother nazi or fascist deserves, a beating.
If he is pretty, there is nothing you can do.
Never thought of it that way, i guess my distaste for their views gets the better of me sometimes....
yes, yes, it does. I hate to say it but it happens with most leftists cause they're so concerned with being 'leftists' and fighting 'fash' that they stop being intelligent human beings capable of intelligent unbiased thoughts/actions. That's not meant for you directly, I think it's high time we stop being defined by the standard reactions by the majority of leftists, and start letting what we believe and have deduced though analysis and rational thought to revolutionize leftism for the future. It's a new world kids, incase y'all haven't noticed :POriginally posted by Auto_anarchy+January 28, 2007 07:33 am--> (Auto_anarchy @ January 28, 2007 07:33 am)Never thought of it that way, i guess my distaste for their views gets the better of me sometimes....
I'm not saying I'm a pacifist, but I believe in getting to the root of why some people hold the ideas and beliefs they do or else we will be fighting an endless battle............... and if that doesn't work, then you boot 'em in the arse, assuming they're threatening you, otherwise it's kind of senceless and sets a bad example and solves notihng except makes them hate us more.
We should not have our beliefs because we are leftists, we should be leftists because of our beliefs.
it probably is so beat it out of him :P then talk if that dont work walk away and dont ever talk to him again
"Mankind is divided into rich and poor, into property owners and exploited; and to abstract oneself from this fundamental division; and from the antagonism between poor and rich means abstracting oneself from fundamental facts." - Joseph Stalin
You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.- Trotsky
Soldiers and police dem wising up, realizing they're no more right than us
Realizing there's no use fighting us
Realizing their opening their eyes to see the same demoralizing life as us- Jr gong
<span style=\'color:red\'>FREE THE CUBAN 5!!!!!!!!</span>
No, that just makes you a thug and no better than they are. Violent words do not require violent actions, especially if they are comming out of the mouths of teen angst ridden youths. I have read much of what the online far-right is pushing down the throats of pissed off white males, and it says that leftists are violent thugs. Being a violent thug will proove in their minds that what theyve read is true, and this is one thing that must be avoided. Violent action is only necessary when they are being violent or verbally abusive. For instance, if they call a black person a "nigger" to their face, then punch the shit out of them. If they use the word "nigger" in their fractured political rantings, fight words with words. Such inflammitory words deem inflammitory words in responce, but not violence. The dangerous thing about the far right is they do use rhetoric which on the surface may seem to be positive, for instance, fascists I know are vehemountly anti-capitalist. Of course their notions of capitalism and its evils are rooted in anti-semitic lies, but their disdain for capitalism is a bridge to which we can reach them. If we tell them why their anti-capitalism completely misses the point, and the true nature of the system they hate, they may possibly be reached, even if we get pissed off at them and leave talks with them before our words sink into their hearts. reforming a single fascist is far far greater than beating a hundred, this is the goal and this is what must be done.
We are not talking about aggressive skinheads, we are talking about a 12 year old boy who has himself mixed up with terrible thoughts. I would NEVER support violent action against a 12 year old unless it is in defence of someone he is attacking. I realize that many of you are in your high school years and see these people as your peerage, but you must remember that high school sucks. It is filled with angst, depression, and the need for an ego to fill. That is what brought nearly all the stormfronters fascism, and that is, I suspect, what brought some of the more immature people on this forum (you know who you are) to skeward forms of poorly understood leftism. High school ends, and if these people have enough positive influences in their adolescence, fascism can end with it.
As hard as it may seem, I ask you to actually help your friend yourself. Become his friend, become a positive influence on his life. Show him that the bullshit he sees on BET is not reflective of the black community at all. Introduce him to non-white friends of yours. If he is at heart a good kid, then he will be redeemed. If not, then at least you did your best, and dont use violence against him unless his actions warrant such a response. Teenage fascism is an ego booster, and our enemies enlist new recruits to this bullshit by catering to their quest for a strong, delusional ego. The only way to combat this is by recognizing their lies for what they are: propaganda aimed at frustrated white kids. Remember that these are kids we are talking about, and they need to be treated as such. They are going through a stupid phase in their lives, the difference between them and the emo's and gangsta kids is that they have been fed this extremely dangerous idealogical fad by sick older bastards on the internet.
Show your friend Louis and the Nazi's so he can better understand the roots of the delusional ideas he subscribes to. Education is the strongest weapon against contemporary fascism, not fists. The last thing we need is martyrs-of-sorts to neofascism. The younger the nazi, the more essential the absense of violence is when dealing with them. These are frustrated kids who need and deserve our help, they will be happier with love than they will with hate, beating them up will only fill them with hate and fear, which are the two primary weapons in the neonazi arsenal.
Violent action will only solidify their beliefs and should be reserved as a responce to violent action on their part.
<span style=\'color:red\'>Liberty without Socialism is privilege, injustice; Socialism without Liberty is Slavery and Brutality.
-Mikhail Bakunin</span>
<span style=\'color:gray\'>The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.
-Murray Bookchin</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
-Peter Kropotkin</span>
That's your opinion.
Have you actually done a study to confirm this, i.e. do you have the study to back this up, statistics, ect.? Do you have sociological evidence that the crusades, colonialism, slavery, Bonapartism, Fascism, Nazism, etc. would have been stopped much more effecively if "they where just reasoned with"? Are you a psychologist/psychiatrist who has interviewed neo-nazis and have significantly reviewed their behaviour enough to make this assertion? Have you worked in the anti-fascist / anti-racist movement for a significant period of time, and have confronted/talked to neo-nazis and have tried different tactics that lead you to your conclusion?
If you can't answer yes to atleast one of these, might I suggest your opinion is nothing more than baseless and not very useful?
I can answer yes to at least the last one, and I would rather see violence used in premeptive self defense in order to prevent nazis from organizing anything at all. Just attempting a conversation with a neo-nazi is a security/safety risk and I would seriously question the experience and intelligence of anyone who tells you otherwise.
Neo-Maoist rants: http://marcelthemaoist.blogspot.com The Commie Geek: http://mistax1337.blogspot.com
Dude! We're talking about kids here! You cited the Crusades, last time I checked, the Childrens crusade didnt do much more than to fuck over the kids involved. That is essentially what kids involved in neofascism are doing to themselves. It is our duty as human beings to help these kids.
An organized party comprised of adults is one thing, but my posts, if you read clearly, are concerning kids caught up in neonazi phases, if you suggest beating these kids up, you are clearly a sick minded individual.
But perhaps you're only a kid yourself, in which case your immature fetish of violence is an understandable result of adolescence.
<span style=\'color:red\'>Liberty without Socialism is privilege, injustice; Socialism without Liberty is Slavery and Brutality.
-Mikhail Bakunin</span>
<span style=\'color:gray\'>The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.
-Murray Bookchin</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
-Peter Kropotkin</span>
Ewok, don't put words in my mouth.
Let's get things right. We are not talking about "kids" if we are talking about high school. Kids are like under 14. Anyone under 14 is very rare to be a nazi, commie, or anything else unless they have been indoctrined by their parents, or in a very extremely rare case on their own. Obviously no adult is going to go and beat an underage kid (without a really good reason).
I cited the crusades because it is something that has a historical connection to white supremacism and I highly doubt the people leading them could be talked to rationally. I don't think there was many kids involved that chose to take up the crusades on their own, especially against their parents will. Most where indotrined by their parents, while many of these rare cases of "kids" or youth are nazis against the wishes of their parents. Times are different.
I don't give a fuck about someone else's kids who want to beat up my kids because they are not aryan. I have no fucking duty to help these kids. I'll break their fucking face if they fuck with my family though, and I'll be sastified I did so even though I would go to jail for it. You can think it's juvenile if you want, but I think your talking like a stupid hippy so you can kiss my ass.If you want to act differently that's your choice.
High school is more violent than most adults everyday situation. How often are you bullied at work? How many "cliques" are there at your work place? In fact, younger kids are facing more and more violence at school these days. My kids talk about more shit going down at school in one week then I think ever happened to me in the average year at school. The oldest is 10.
I chalk this up to the general attitude caused by commodity fetishism, lack of after-school programs and other things; but if there was racism put in the picture I would basically slap the fucker's kids myself and then out the fucking parents while I'm at it.
Nazism isn't a phase like wearing a hat tilted to the left, or pokeman cards. It's a political ideology and if you are mature enough to come to conclusions as such you may face certain consequences.
Neo-Maoist rants: http://marcelthemaoist.blogspot.com The Commie Geek: http://mistax1337.blogspot.com
Nevermind us being friends. I've had enough. I did a little digging on him... he's on probation right now-- charged with hate crime. Before he came to my school, him and three friends (all who had just recently shaved their heads) went into a Jewish center around here and called one of the ladies there a kike. He was also suspected of vandalism (ruining a pool table in the center) earlier. His myspace includes a video about a neo-nazi playing the victim in society and explains what he believes (one reason to hate blacks is because "they smell bad" [another has to do with whites having a 15% larger frontal lobe in the brain, can anyone confirm this?]).
He also has a scar on his leg of a swastika.
Today in class, we were writing on a piece of paper doodling and I wrote "Fuck Nazis" and he laughed and said that he feels like that might have been targeted at him.
The 16 year old is this boy. By the way, I snipped out city names or addresses for paranoia reasons.
Life is something worth dying for.
What a ****, good job on deciding to leave that ***** behind.
<span style=\'font-family:tahoma\'><span style=\'color:#990000\'>"I don't like to use the word "U.S. interest". That's why I wish some other critics would stop saying "We go into this country, we do that, we do this", no no no. We do not do things, they do it to us. We are part of the victims, not part of the victimizors."</span></span>
<span style=\'font-family:tahoma\'><span style=\'color:#000000\'>"The network's going down because I think for myself."</span></span> - <span style=\'color:#000000\'>Carbon/Silicon</span>
<span style=\'color:#CC0000\'>Formerly known as stayfree.</span>
lmfao!Originally posted by Comrade Marcel@January 30, 2007 06:37 am
You can think it's juvenile if you want, but I think your talking like a stupid hippy so you can kiss my ass.
Seriously, you cant debate or have an intelligent conversation with those fuckers, they are to brainwashed and set in their ways. It wouldnt make much sense to beat up a little kid, but like comrade marcel said, their arent very many kid nazi's, unless brought up that way. Im still in high school and can tell you from experiance that the skinheads that live around me wouldnt give a shit if you were 5 years old and a jew or black or mexican, they still would start shit with you, for that reason I see it the same way, as long as their not to young I dont mind beating their asses. Violence is effective too, there was a whole group of nazi's, probably near 40 people when I first moved here, after getting together with kids from other schools and mine we made a kind of antifa, ARA group and have pretty much taken care of the nazi problem here, he destroyed their club houses and their numbers are greatly smaller, there are none (at least none brave enough to admit it) at my school and we harass the older ones enough that if there group is still around they are to scared to make it public.
Point being the passive approach to things is, although sometimes effective, overall ineffective.
confront this muthafucker, BEAT the shit out of him, he sounds militant enough, knock his teeth out! I would suggest more, but i've already been warned about advising weapons use, hopefully you'll pick up that hint lol
High school kids are still kids. They may have adult bodies and capabilities, and if they are commiting hate crimes, thats a completely different story, but if they are running their mouths, one must remember that people that age are still quite immature for the most part and need to do some growing up. For me to attack one of these kids would not be right, considering the age difference, unless under extreme provocation. Nazism can be a fad, because it is often inspired by hate-rock, and the music brings most young nazi's to the idealogy, that is a very common starting place. I've no doubt in my mind that some of you were brought to leftism by Rage Against the Machine and Anti-Flag and such bands, consider the effects of Skrewdriver on young impressionable and frustrated kids (largely white males, but there are a few exceptions to this, remember the Red Lake massacre.)
An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure, and attacking these kids will cure nothing. It will at best make them shut up and keep their beliefs inward to fester, and at worst make them martyrs-of-sorts. I think people here place too much faith on the rationalizing capabilities of adolescent mindsets. High school is for many people a difficult time of great confusion and frustration, and people do or say things in this period of their lives that they will later come to regret. Take the example of gay teenagers who go through high school being militantly anti-gay. I know plenty of these people, and Im sure many people here know such cases as well.
Nazism is a cult of hyper-masculinity, and Ive no doubt in my mind that many kids who profess nazism in their youths do so out of insecurity and trying to proove themselves to be macho. There are other ways of doing this of course, but some impressionable kids who stumble across the wrong bands or websites do take this path to proove their so-called masculinity.
When talking about young nazi's, you have to consider the causes. Impressionability is a huge cause, so is gender roles, and so is, in probably most cases, inferiority complexes.
Your assuming that these kids are actively violent skinheads, and that may be the case, in that case its a bit different, but in my experiance, the fascists I have dealt with are all theory and rhetoric and no violence. In fact, Im not sure that theyve even been in a fight. The thing about this type of fascist, which I can guarentee is the large majority of neofascists, is that they love to debate, and this gives us a channel to refute their broken logic, and perhaps in time turn them away from the path theyre on. Using violence against words is a horrible strategy that will only harm the situation, wouldnt you agree? Suppose you were in a debate with a neoconservative, and he punched you in the face and kicked your ass (you also make the assumption that you are going to win in a fight against the neofascists), would it make you shut up, or would it make you speak louder?
Id like to hear what you people would actually hope to achieve by using violence against these kids (in cases where they arent being actively violent to begin with). What do you think this will accomplish, aside from making you feel big and right about your actions? Have you considered the possible repercussions? The fact that you have likely solidified their views? Do you even care about that? Your tactics seem to me to be flawed at best, and at worst just another manifestation of egotistical hyper-masculinity.
<span style=\'color:red\'>Liberty without Socialism is privilege, injustice; Socialism without Liberty is Slavery and Brutality.
-Mikhail Bakunin</span>
<span style=\'color:gray\'>The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.
-Murray Bookchin</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
-Peter Kropotkin</span>
By the way, my response: send that hate-crime commiting kid to a mental institute, not a hospital.
<span style=\'color:red\'>Liberty without Socialism is privilege, injustice; Socialism without Liberty is Slavery and Brutality.
-Mikhail Bakunin</span>
<span style=\'color:gray\'>The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.
-Murray Bookchin</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
-Peter Kropotkin</span>
Ewok, what your saying is not bad or incorrect, and I don't completely disagree with you, but you are assuming that one powerful dominant force (for example, a strong white male communist) is going to be enforcing a less powerful persyn (the young, niave teenage neo-nazi).
The case may more likely be that people of the same age group are going to be battling it out. The chances are likely that it is going to turn violent. It may be Black Vs. White, and there may be some people on one side or the other simply because they are Black or White and no real scientific/political reasons.
My point is, that if you are going to be using political arguments, your energy and time should be used to influence others to join your side in nothing more than the supression of the neo-nazi(s). The nazis have to be left to come around on their own, or at the very least no more than one attempt from the anti-side.
Neo-Maoist rants: http://marcelthemaoist.blogspot.com The Commie Geek: http://mistax1337.blogspot.com
most the nazi's I've dealt with are the ones I've either seen walkin down the street, in the mall, or have come and interrupted our shows just to fight. I would agree that a lot of these skinheads just do it either for attention or to feel they belong, but that doesnt mean they wont go do things that are fucked up. They are pressured by older nazi's to fight us (the local antifa and other leftists) and harass the gay and miniroty community. Its not so bad anymore cuz like I said we've pretty much cleaned the streets around here, also this is a large mormon community and they dont usually tolerate that shit either. Some of those 'kids' your talking about have stabbed my friends, raped young leftists that I kno and are responsible for the death of a young gay man that they were never charged for. These fuckers are a threat, whether kid or not, im not just going to stand by and debate with them.
What do I hope to achieve? I want to wipe out any remnant of that fucker hitlers ideology, I want to show any racist, sexist, anti-semitist, red-neck, etc. that their believes are not welcome. I believe the government uses nazi and fascist groups to terrorize the left and so I hope to stop that too. I want those nazi's to see that there is no room for their hate and racism and that if they choose to believe that way there are people who will stand up to them.
In cases where they arent being violent, I will usually start the fight because I know if I try and debate with them thats where its gonna end up anyway.
I also dont do it to act 'big', that has nothing to do with it, I just know that if we dont stand up to them they will walk all over the community, they will continue to grow and recruit MORE young people, and so fighting them and shutting them down stops that.
Ok so it may solidify some of their views of us, but who cares, theyre going to be against us anyway, at least let them know not to fuck with us.
How is fighting egotistical hyper-masculinity? Violence is necessary, whether you think that or not.
Just ignore him. There's no point in beating him just for the sake of beating up a nazi. To be honest, I've never really met a "real nazi." The nazi ideology has almost no potential for growth within America.
Don't bother with him unless he starts really fucking with you or other kids at school.
Seriously think about this...
Go over to his house, and introduce yourself as something like Jerry Finklestein. Depending on his family's reaction, debate, run, or throw a gas bomb!
He called me a godless red and yellow hippie sonofa*****... I almost think he was trying to insult me!
Peace, love, and brotherhood
