[STUDY GROUP] Quotations from Mao Zedong?

[Entrails Konfetti]

Originally posted by CriticizeEverythingAlways+December 05, 2006 03:39 am--> (CriticizeEverythingAlways @ December 05, 2006 03:39 am)

EL KABLAMO

@ December 04, 2006 10:19 pm
He wasn't talking about a Vanguard , he was just talking about a party. A party is just a group of people.

Lenin once said that a proletarian party has a vanguard role. I note no contradiction between this and Mao's quote and my comment.

their frame work can be bourgoeis socialist

Their "frame work" (sic) is to organize the working class politically and instill in the workers a political consciousness. Without political consciousness, the revolutionary movement can never move beyond temporary gains such as wage increases and shorter working hours when the big goal is to seize political power from the bourgeois class and institute the proletarian dictatorship and make these temporary gains along with many other improvements to material life permanent. The working class needs to see "the bigger picture," the working class needs to know its enemy. Its enemy- the bourgeois class- thinks politically, therefore the working class must think politically if it is to win the class struggle.

have no other alternatives

And what other alternatives would there be, exactly?

as for the sitting cats, they can live.

And who would the "sitting cats" be, if we are to follow your metaphor? Bureaucrats, I presume? [/b]

Are those automated responses?

I was trying to point out that anyone can interpret those quotes however they like.

Lenin once said that a proletarian party has a vanguard role. I note no contradiction between this and Mao's quote and my comment.

Where does it say that in the Little Red Book?

Their "frame work" (sic) is to organize the working class politically and instill in the workers a political consciousness. Without political consciousness, the revolutionary movement can never move beyond temporary gains such as wage increases and shorter working hours when the big goal is to seize political power from the bourgeois class and institute the proletarian dictatorship and make these temporary gains along with many other improvements to material life permanent.

Oh but Bourgeois socialists can use revolutionary jargon.

And what other alternatives would there be, exactly?

Are you really SmarterChild from aim?

And who would the "sitting cats" be, if we are to follow your metaphor? Bureaucrats, I presume?

No those damned cats that rip up their furniture and piss in their loafers.
You know the kind that go "meow".

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Rosa Lichtenstein@December 05, 2006 12:11 pm
Count me out.

Then leave the thread already.

In other words, as Maoists you have to give up thinking -- for to do so is to called a 'revisionist' (and, in China, say 40 years ago, risk being shot, etc.).

In other words, you can criticise anything but the party -- so the party becomes god.

Yeah and by Mao saying "Bombard the headquarters" he secured the safety of the party from criticism...

The whole cultural revolution was about criticising the party and other institutions. The main part of Maoism is that the party can become corrupt and a class enemy to the proletariat.

You are subordinate to a representative

A representative elected by the member base. I don't see the problem.

Publicly, you can't express that you differ with the rest of your party on an issue, policy, or even the framework of the party.

Why would you publicly embarres your party? Members are meant to be above petty self interest and can wait till the appropriate time to criticise the party.

Sorry but I think it's worst book ever written. As you said, it wasn't really for insight but for learning to read. It didn't teach peasents and workers how to influence policy in their favour, it didn't say what mechanisms the new state had, it didn't give ideas in how to organize.

There is no point to continue discussing the book if you do not understand the purpose of propaganda and agitation. The book is similar to a pamphlet or an ABC book of Marxism. We are hardly going to go around giving out Das Kapital to workers are we now? We don't hope to turn workers into militant communists with one pamphlet. However we continue to do so to ignite discussion and keep people interested in politics. This was the intention of the book. It encouraed people to become educated and to continue further study on Marxism.

And actually it did give ideas on how to organise.


This is why I wont discuss the book on revleft. We can't seriously discuss the book with such disruptions.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Hiero:

Then leave the thread already.

No.

Yeah and by Mao saying "Bombard the headquarters" he secured the safety of the party from criticism...

In fact, I think he preferred to fill the jails with the innocent, allow world record levels of executions, and set red guards on everyone (each armed with the Bible), just for starters.

The whole cultural revolution was about criticising the party and other institutions. The main part of Maoism is that the party can become corrupt and a class enemy to the proletariat.

Oh my non-existent deity, I think you really believe this....

In that case, do not let me disturb your dogmatic slumber.

[I'll order you an extra lorry load of sand for you to bury your head in. ]

[OneBrickOneVoice]

In fact, I think he preferred to fill the jails with the innocent, allow world record levels of executions, and set red guards on everyone (each armed with the Bible), just for starters.

Which is why he specifically issued a statement saying that all activity that occured in the cultural revolution should be peaceful. Usually in mass popular movements like the cultural revolution, one person doesn't control it. That was true for the cultural revolution.

[Prairie Fire]

Oy, this is why I said earlier that we should just ignore everyone who comes onto this thread trying to provoke us. If you do not respond to them, they will go away.
Seriously, try it.

Here are some more good ones:

"Imperialism will not last long, because it always does evil things. It persists in grooming and supporting reactionaries in all countries who are against the people, it has forcibly seized many colonies and semi colonies and many military bases, and it threatens the peace with atomic war. Thus, forced by imperialism to do so, more than 90 per cent of the people of the world are rising or will rise up in struggle against it. Yet imperilaism is still alive, still running amuck in Asia, Africa, Latin America. In the west, imperialism is still opressing people at home. This situation must change. It is the task of the people of the whole world to put an end to the aggression and oppression perpetrated by imperialism,and cheifly by U.S. imperialism."

"As for the imperialist countries, we should unite with their peoples and strive to coexist peacefully with those countries, do buisness with them and prevent any possible war, but under no circumstances should we harbour any unrealistic notions about them."

[Leo]

Satan will not last long, because he always does evil things. He persists in grooming and supporting non-believers in all countries who are against the Christians, he has forcibly seized many servants and semi servants and many castles, and he threatens the peace with unholy war. Thus, forced by the Satan to do so, more than 90 per cent of the Christians of the world are crusading or will crusade in struggle against it. Yet Satan is still alive, still running amuck in Asia, Africa, Latin America. In the west, Satan is still oppressing Christians at home. This situation must change. It is the task of the Christians of the whole world to put an end to the aggression and oppression perpetrated by the Satan,and cheifly by his demon of hell.

Quote fixed.

Oh it feels so much like reading the Bible!

[Hiero]

You the one taking a mystical and non-materialist approach here.

In fact, I think he preferred to fill the jails with the innocent, allow world record levels of executions, and set red guards on everyone (each armed with the Bible), just for starters.

Rosa blames a individuals actions, rather then social forces. This indicates that Rosa's sources are from bourgeois academics. These type of sources have the fantasy based idea that socialist leaders are dictators, and sole players. All their actions are based on individual motive, and any revolutionary actions is belittled to attempts to harm everyone (regardless of their class or politics). It is ridiculous to think that in any social movement, actions are random and victims are random.

You should leave and go rant about how Marx is an anti materialist, or whatever it is you do.

Quote fixed.

Oh it feels so much like reading the Bible!

Your an idiot. Imperialism is real, it is in Asia, Africa and Latin America. At home it does oppress people. And everywhere people fight imperialism. How is this quote wrong or dogmatic? Do you support imperialism? Do you equate it's existance with Satan because you think it doesn't exist?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Heiro:

Rosa blames a individuals actions, rather then social forces. This indicates that Rosa's sources are from bourgeois academics.

I blame the ruling-class of 'Communist' China, and I rather think Mao was an individual in the ruling clique.

You, absolve him and all the rest of these crimes.

This indicates your sources are from borgeois mass murderers.

You should leave and go rant about how Marx is an anti materialist, or whatever it is you do.

I see you have to invent stuff, like the rest of you mystics.

Right, you can get back to Bible class now.

[Leo]

Imperialism is real, it is in Asia, Africa and Latin America. At home it does oppress people. And everywhere people fight imperialism. Do you support imperialism? Do you equate it's existance with Satan because you think it doesn't exist?

Imperialism is real and it is everywhere, and I oppose it everywhere. Every nation-state is imperialist by its nature. You, on the other hand, support it in some places and oppose it in other places; you take sides among the imperialists.

I changed the word "imperialist" with the word "satan" because that's about how Mao wants people to understand it.

How is this quote wrong or dogmatic?

It is ironic.

Your an idiot.

Thank you, I take every insult you make me as a compliment.

Anyway, get back to studying your bible, yeah?

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Rosa Lichtenstein@December 09, 2006 09:43 am
Heiro:

Rosa blames a individuals actions, rather then social forces. This indicates that Rosa's sources are from bourgeois academics.

I blame the ruling-class of 'Communist' China, and I rather think Mao was an individual in the ruling clique.

You, absolve him and all the rest of these crimes.

This indicates your sources are from borgeois mass murderers.

You should leave and go rant about how Marx is an anti materialist, or whatever it is you do.

I see you have to invent stuff, like the rest of you mystics.

Right, you can get back to Bible class now.

Convincing arguement, you have changed my mind completly.

Imperialism is real and it is everywhere, and I oppose it everywhere. Every nation-state is imperialist by its nature. You, on the other hand, support it in some places and oppose it in other places; you take sides among the imperialists.

What imperialist do I side with?

I changed the word "imperialist" with the word "satan" because that's about how Mao wants people to understand it.

How did Mao want to see it?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Hiero:

Convincing arguement, you have changed my mind completly.

You mystics are not too good at sarcasm, either.

[harris0]

How's the personality cult around the merciless dictator going? How many young impressionable youths without the proper knowledge of history have you been able to mislead into joining your group?

[Hiero]

Originally posted by Rosa Lichtenstein@December 10, 2006 02:55 am
Hiero:

Convincing arguement, you have changed my mind completly.

You mystics are not too good at sarcasm, either.

Mystics? What was mystical about my sarcasm? I am being "mystic" now?

Seriously where have you put forward a correct arguement that would change my mind? What you are saying is no different to what Jung Chang might say.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Hiero:

What was mystical about my sarcasm? I am being "mystic" now?

Seriously where have you put forward a correct arguement that would change my mind? What you are saying is no different to what Jung Chang might say.

Your sarcasm was eminently un-mystical, but you mystics are just not very good at it.

And what makes you think I either want to, or could, change your mind? Steeped in mysticism, you are in fact less of a threat to the working-class. So, if you stay a mystic, that is all to the good.

Why do I accuse you dialectical 'materialists' of being mystics?

Simple: you have all caught a Hermetic intellectual virus from Hegel.

More details at my site.

What you are saying is no different to what Jung Chang might say.

Not so; she attacks Mao/Maoism from the right.

I attack him/it from the materialist left.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Comrades can now read a clear demolition of Mao's vague ideas on 'contradictions', here:

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic...st&p=1292380517

[Pawn Power]

Comrades can now read a clear demolition of Mao's vague ideas on 'contradictions', here:

http://www.revleft.com/index.php?showtopic...st&p=1292380517

your link no longer works.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Thanks for that PP; the link is now:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...57&postcount=2

A few confused comrades tried to pull my argument apart, but only by:

1) Denying what I had said about Mao was correct (that was easy to rebut by re-posting his own words), or:

2) Simply rejecting my argument out of hand (which is no more convincing that someone who just rejects Marx for no reason), or

3) Saying that this was not representative -- which was easy to refute:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...6&postcount=27

[Lenin II]

[FONT=Verdana]Though I’m a Hoxhaist, I shall join in due to my undying respect for Mao. His ideas on Marxist-Leninist theory are instrumental to an understanding of scientific socialism.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]

[FONT=Verdana]The force at the core leading our cause forward is the Chinese Communist Party. The theoretical basis guiding our thinking is Marxism-Leninism.[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]This quote is simply summery of the structure of Chinese society at the time. Nothing to really comment on.[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana]

[FONT=Verdana]If there is to be revolution, there must be a revolutionary party. Without a revolutionary party, without a party built on the Marxist-Leninist revolutionary theory and in the Marxist-Leninist revolutionary style, it is impossible to lead the working class and the broad masses of the people in defeating imperialism and its running dogs.[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]This quote is expressing Mao’s attitude that a vanguard party is necessary for the forefront of revolution. This is also an acknowledgement of the pattern of the working class on its own merely attaining trade-union consciousness and not revolutionary consciousness, no matter how miserable their conditions. Mao agrees with the theories of Marxism-Leninism over regular Marxism[/FONT][FONT=Verdana], which says that the working class will gain rational insight as to the nature of classes and capitalism all by itself, which is of course ludicrous. Marx himself even admitted this. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]An organized party of revolutionaries must exist to raise their consciousness and promote Marxist theory as well as being an organized military force to protect the class interests of the working people against the highly organized reactionary forces. There can be no other scientific way towards an overthrow of capitalism.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]This same role of the Chinese Communist Party Third is further expanded on the third quote:[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana]
[FONT=Verdana]

[FONT=Verdana]Without the efforts of the Chinese Communist Party, without the Chinese Communists as the mainstay of the Chinese people, China can never achieve independence and liberation, or industrialization and the modernization of her agriculture. [/FONT]

[/FONT]
And fourth [FONT=Verdana]quote:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]The Chinese Communist Party is the core of leadership of the whole Chinese people. Without this core, the cause of socialism cannot be victorious. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]
Thoughts on these?[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[Lenin II]

Why did this thread die? Speak up, someone!