Any students of the Spanish Civil War?

[redbhoy59]

I've studied this period of workers glorious and disasterous history for a long time and still find new info everyday. It was the only period in history that thousands of workers from all over the world(estimated at 32 different nationalities) fought together with their Spanish brothers and sisters to defend an elected government against a fascist revolt.
I'd love to hear from others their take on the subject.
Was it winable?
Your take on political in-fighting on the left?
What can we learn from it to further today's struggle?

Anything really.

(Edited by redbhoy59 at 4:44 am on Feb. 6, 2003)

[redstar2000]

I frankly admit that this is a subject that I also don't know as much about as I should.

One glaring error of the Spanish Republic: the failure to grant immediate and unconditional independence to Morocco...much of Franco's forces were of Moroccan origins...independence for Morocco would have undermined their morale and might even have provoked mass desertions.

I have come across one criticism of the anarcho-syndicalists that might be significant: the CNT and the FAI, for the most part, had no "vision" of a revolutionary "government"...consequently, some of them actually joined as members of the cabinet, the bourgeois government in Madrid. This step could have "inhibited" the growth of revolutionary consciousness.

Without active military support from the USSR or some other outside power, it's difficult for me to see how the Republic could have defeated Franco and the Italian Army and the German Air Force.

[Ian]

I agree with RedStar's point about granting independence to Morocco, but my belief is that if the CNT/UGT were given access to weapons earlier in the 'Rising', then they would have defeated the undertrained/shitty Civil guard and controlled vital areas, maybe it wouldn't have done that much but it would have probably weakened the support the Fifth column enjoyed in many republican areas.

[redbhoy59]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 11:38 pm on Feb. 5, 2003
I
One glaring error of the Spanish Republic: the failure to grant immediate and unconditional independence to Morocco...much of Franco's forces were of Moroccan origins...independence for Morocco would have undermined their morale and might even have provoked mass desertions.

Interesting observation. I've heard this point debated several times. I'm not so sure that Independence for Morocco at that time would have changed much. The Popular Front Government was walking a tight-rope. Trying on one hand to enact many social changes that needed to be taken care of and also being weary of revolt by the right-wing militarists that controlled most of the armed forces. I believe that the reason Independence was not given to Morocco immediately was the republican government wanted the bulk of the military away from Spain to slow any revolt and to keep it from Infecting mainland Spain. If Independence were given, then most of the army would have to start coming home. At this point any revolt by troops stationed in N. Africa would have to enter Spain by boat through the Straits of Gibraltar. Which was guarded by warships loyal to the Republic. They had no Idea at this time that Italian cargo planes were being given to Franco to Fly troops into Spain after certain airfeilds were secured. I also feel that the desertions in this instance would not have been so wide spead as one would hope, due to the fact that for many of the Moroccan troops, the army was the only job available to them (much like Afghanistan today).

As for the point about the CNTFAI. I think it would be fair to break it down further for anyone reading this thread. The Leadership of the CNT(anarchist trade union/militia) understood that any chance of victory they must work closely with other groups. Thus the alliance with the UGT(socialist trade union/militia). However, CNT members that fought on the front lines in the Iron Column(alliance of anarchist groups and liberated prisoners) absolutely refused to work with anyone that wasn't fighting for thier anarchist new social order and not to defend the Popular Front government. This lead to Iron column units attacking towns held by Communist and Socialist Republicans. More splitting that no one needed. in my opinion.
This takes me to the comment written by Ian Rocks. Despite some major victories on the Teruel Front (Sarion, Mastrazgo) for the Iron Column, the Republican Government in Spain early on and later dictated to by the Comintern, was fearful of giving arms to
them. They feared that they would be turned on Republican troops as well. This Unfortunately affected their decision to give arms to the Socialist militias as well until they were merged with the Popular army. By this time they had lost much ground on the fronts controlled by militia fighters.

And redstar2000, don't sell yourself short. I think you know more about the subject than you give yourself credit.

So let me ask this: Are you of the position that under these circumstances the CNT/Iron columners were right and should have taken these steps to use the Civil War as a means to further their revolution instead of just defeating Fascism and protecting the elected government?

That question is open to anyone.

[Som]

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ws/spain47.html

A great source.

I hadn't read anything on the actions of what your talking about with the anarchist troops attacking, though I have read of the same sort of thing to much greater extends done by the communist party especially.

The biggest problem in the spanish civil war was the aim not to fight the war and create a revolution at the same time, but to stop any revolution, and preserve the old republic. The idea was essentially to appeal to the british and french, who never joined anyway. The Communist party was one of the biggest problems with this. Since the CNT/FAI was still fairly revolutionary at the same time, A huge portion of the communist parties strategy become undermining their efforts. They constantly deprived the CNT of arms, they also sabotaged a plan of the CNT to gain bank gold reserves to buy weapons, they took the gold and bought weapons from stalin, who shipped them less weapons than expected and of poorer quality. In many areas of catalonia, the communists actually forced the land to be uncollectivized. This was a huge factor in the fall of the area. They attacked collectively run factories trying to impose their strict single man management. The Stalinist secret police had imprisoned and killed leaders of other factions.

The CNT leadership become quite bad as well, they bought into the same philosophy of preserving the republican government in order to gain arms from the british and french. The CNT actually supported the stalinist moves to destroy the collective managements.
Later in the war, when the Friends of Durruti faction was set up to promote a more revolutionary attitude, they were all expelled from the CNT.

So let me ask this: Are you of the position that under these circumstances the CNT/Iron columners were right and should have taken these steps to use the Civil War as a means to further their revolution instead of just defeating Fascism and protecting the elected government?

I think the revolution would've been essential to victory, trying to supress it caused much more damage than good.

(Edited by Som at 1:44 am on Feb. 7, 2003)


(Edited by Som at 1:45 am on Feb. 7, 2003)

[AntifaNP]

The first probelm in the SCW was that we didn't have unity in the antifa front. We must all work together whether we are anarchist, social-democrat or pure Liberals...

I believe blaming the CNT of betrayal is pushing it. I dont't know that much about SCW but I am reading a book, not an anarchist one, and I never read about Anarchist betraying marxists. I read the contrary when Stalinists and their ally Soviet Union attacked their socialist enemies.

Anarchists accepteds compromises in order to defeat Franco, they accepted to be a part of the government to cry out loud man!

Don't read me read what Orwell said about Anarchist in Spain:

http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/spunk/Spunk198.html

[Guardia Bolivariano]

The political part of this topic is very important but the reason that the republicans lost the war is simple the contribution of Germany and Italy were bigger and better than the soviets.No soviet airplane tank or rifle was superior to a german one and the German Italian contribution also included soldiers, 60 000 of Italy's best men went to fight in Spain this is one of the reasons why Italy wad problems later on in ww2.But on the political side the main error of the republicans was allowing Franco to return from the canaries to spanish morroco.

[Tavarish Spetsnaz]

There were several casues for the defeat of the Spanish Republic.

First...there were three main groups...the Communist PCE...the Trotskyists...and the Anarchists. PCI tried to unite all of them to face the comon enemy. Trots and anarchists complained too much that the PCE was not giving them weapons...which was not true. Eventually...Trots turned thier guns around and tried to overthrow the Republic in Barcelona...as a result the PCE was forced to arrest the Trot leaders and the Trot movement was disbanded.

The Anarchists were pretty much even more useless...usually wherevr they appeared on the front...they did nothing. Most of the time they spend attacking the PCE instead of the fascists.

PCE made mistakes as well by becoming too allied and too dependant on the socialist Republican government...which was not interested in a communist revolution.

By 1939...Anarchists joined the fascists in giving the last blow against the Republic.

Stalin is of course criticized a lot by the Trots and Anarchists...saying he didn't give them enough weapons. This was not true...USSR send a lot of weapons to Spain...but France, italy and England had a blockade around Spain...preventing Soviet ships form reaching Spain. Over 700 Soviet ships had their crago confisctated...so there was not much more the USSR could do. Whatever could reach Spain...did.

PCE gave weapons to the Anarchists and the Trots...even though they more often used them against the PCE. Orwel complained a lot that supposedly the poor Anarchists did not have enough weapons...so they could not carry out any actions against the fascists. And yet...the PCE had just as few weapons...but they were able to carry out actions against the fascists. That is why PCE just gave up on trying to form union with the Trots and Anarchists...they were not really trying to fight...but rather trying to oppose the PCE. They were weakening the movement.

[redstar2000]

redbhoy, I thank you for your kind words...but, when you think about what you would have to know in detail about the situation in revolutionary Spain, answering your question about the CNT/Iron Column is beyond me.

On the other hand, I know the answer in principle. Somewhere Engels said it (though I don't remember the exact words): the revolution that takes up a defensive position is doomed; it must advance and keep advancing or be crushed.

Tavarish Spetsnaz, without prejudice to your other points, I find it inconceivable that the Soviet Navy could not have broken any "blockade" imposed on the Spanish Republic by the British or the French...had the will to do so been present. I do not think either Britain or France would have run the risk of war with the USSR while they were both (especially France) already becoming concerned with the rising power of the 3rd Reich.

Whatever support the USSR gave the Spanish Republic, it was clearly inadequate in the face of German and Italian support of Franco. I will resist the temptation to speculate on Stalin's motives (he had many other concerns at the time)...but I think the failure to send Soviet troops in significant numbers to Spain was a major blunder...and there's no getting around that.

[Tavarish Spetsnaz]

Inconcievable??? So you suggest...that the Soviet Navy go and attack British and French and Italian ships off Spain...and thus enter into war will all of them..and thus uniting all the imperialist powers against the USSR...the ONE thing that Stalin was trying to avoid???

No...there was nothing the USSR could do.

Send Soviet troops in??? How??? Who would let him do that??? France let them send some weapons for some time...but than cut off even that. It would never have allowed Soviet soldiers to be send in...

[redstar2000]

My point, TS, is that it never would have come to an actual battle (or not more than one, anyway).

However much the British and French ruling classes "wanted" a Franco victory, they would not, in my estimation, have been willing to go to war with the USSR to ensure that outcome. There would have been some nasty diplomatic notes exchanged...and that would have been it.

As for the Italian Navy, I don't think they would have posed much of a difficulty to the Soviet Navy...nor do I think the USSR would have suffered any inconvenience from an Italian declaration of war.

And the Spanish Republic needed those troops.

In a way, I even think Stalin himself realized that his response to Spain had been a blunder--for when Czechoslovakia was threated by the 3rd Reich in 1938, Stalin reportedly made a secret offer of "full military support" to the Czech Government in the event of a German invasion. The Czech bourgeoisie preferred, as we know, German occupation...

[Tavarish Spetsnaz]

Well first of all...the French and the British were looking for any excuse to push Germany towards the USSR. This would have been a perfect opportunity for them...as they could than have one comon enemy...the USSR...and Hitler would turn away from England and France.

Would it have come to a battle...well...British and French navies did have guns...and did force Soviet merchant ships to stop.

Italian navy was the biggest in the Mediterranean...very much more capable than the tiny Navy the Soviets had at the time...

As for Czechoslovakia...well...it was different...this time Hitler was moving towarsd the USSR...and the danger was become very real...and it become clear what the plans fo the british, French and german imperialists were...So Stalin tried to end that than and there...

Should more have been done in Spain...perhaps...How much more I don't know. Looking at it now its easy to say what more...but looking at it than...is a different story. Sending Soviet Army to Spain would have been impossible...So either way the conflict would have ended as it did.