Does anyone remember JFK?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Amazingly, the American authorities have managed their aim. Who remembers JFK? Of those who do, who still feel passionately for it. I know I do. JFK was going to revolutionise the world. Civil rights for blacks, end the vietnam war, allow Cuba to govern how it wanted. Kennedy was going to be one of the greats. The greatest.
It amazes me how people don't really think much of what obviously happened (although unproven as yet). The biggest government plot, the most incredible backstabbing of a leader. Everyone was in on it, CIA, FBI, Black Opps, probably even LBJ himself. It was one of the most hanes crimes ever. And it was by a government, on their leader. The documents will be classified untill 2039. By then, will anyone even care at all? Who grieves for John Fitzgerald Kennedy....

[man in the red suit]

oh please....government did not have JFK assasinated. I don't know where on earth you are getting this from. I agree, JFK was on the road to greatness. But he was killed by an assasin. And the assasin was not a secret FBI agent as much as it may provide us comfort to develop these silly "conspiracies. if there is a conspiracy at all that is worth investigating then it is whether or not JFK had more than one killer. That one I would believe as there is a lot of evidence pointing towards it in the first place.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

No, a member of a federal institution didnt shoot him, but the plot was organised. It was a full scale assassin plot. The gunmen were agents. Where am i getting this from? Books. By scholars. Experts. Jack Ruby's Agency connections, ditto Clay Bertrand (Clay Shaw). America's need for was business. Need to crush communism. And most of all, the amazing security stand off in Dealy Plaza on the 22nd November 1963. There are too many smoking guns. Too mucbh evidence. Who beneifts most? Who benefitted most from the death of JFK...

[man in the red suit]

and how credible are these "experts" and "scholars?" Try not to believe everything you hear my friend. Jack Ruby's agency is certainly one of the last sources whcih I would ever get vital information from. I might as well be reading national enquirer for such ridiculous claims.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

What are you on about. I meant Jack Ruby's links to the Agency. The CIA. Not Jack Ruby's agency. How credible are these sources? Who am I to judge ones perspective. Believing everything you hear would be to have the opinion you have. Witnesses killed, witness reports fragmented, the chief of security being sent to the south pole so the correct procedure didnt take place. Open top motorcade? Dangerous bend on elm street? open windows? man opening black umbrella? car slows down AFTER first shot? These are just a few brief signposts....

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 2:42 am on Feb. 2, 2003
Believing everything you hear would be to have the opinion you have.

?? I'm sorry i said that I DON'T believe everything I hear.

you have your views and I have mine, that is all I can say. How can you be sure that you have legitimate "CIA"
sources? what makes you think they would ever disclose this information?

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Jack Ruby was well-known for being Agency. Clay Shaw said in his statement he was Agency. Dave Ferry also admitted to being Agency. It wasn't a case of disclosing information.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 2:53 am on Feb. 2, 2003
Jack Ruby was well-known for being Agency. Clay Shaw said in his statement he was Agency. Dave Ferry also admitted to being Agency. It wasn't a case of disclosing information.

and what if I told you that I was in the agency. Would you believe me?

[redstar2000]

JFK was an imperial bastard and the idea of "grieving" for that turd is enough to gag a maggot.

Remember, this is the motherfucker who invaded Cuba and came within inches of starting World War III?

That would certainly "revolutionize" the world, all right...into a slag heap of radioactive rubble!

Socialismo o Muerto, you need to read some real history. I suggest, to begin with, The Dark Side of Camelot by Seymour M. Hersh (ISBN #0316359556).

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Now you're just saying whatever you can to back up your argument. Face it, to ensure war and, in-tunr big business, the American government will go to any length. Even to kill their own evidence. Wait untill 2039. All will be revealed

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

[quote]Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:06 am on Feb. 2,
Remember, this is the motherfucker who invaded Cuba and came within inches of starting World War III?


The Bay of Pigs was a stupid mistake. But you say he nearly led us to World War 3? If YOU read YOUR history then surely you would know that it was the decision of the defence secretary to plant missiles in Turkey, something JFK opposed to. When Kruschev put his missiles on Cuba, JFK reacted how he wanted to because he didnt believe "strategic missiles" were right. You say he nearly started WW3....he prevented WW3. Being a good historian and critic means not being swayed by peoples opinions....including Che. Your views reflect exactly what Che said about Kennedy.

I suggest YOU, my friend, read YOUR history. Both sides of the argument.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 3:07 am on Feb. 2, 2003
Now you're just saying whatever you can to back up your argument. Face it, to ensure war and, in-tunr big business, the American government will go to any length. Even to kill their own evidence. Wait untill 2039. All will be revealed

I'm not saying whatever I can to defend my argument. It is logical. what if I told you that I was from the agency? would you believe me? do you see how easy it is to simply claim that you are from the agency? and yes the evidence will come out in 2039...what makes you think I am going to live that long? how will I know that that evidence is legitimate either?

[man in the red suit]

[quote]Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 3:15 am on Feb. 2, 2003

Quote: from redstar2000 on 3:06 am on Feb. 2,
Remember, this is the motherfucker who invaded Cuba and came within inches of starting World War III?


The Bay of Pigs was a stupid mistake. But you say he nearly led us to World War 3? If YOU read YOUR history then surely you would know that it was the decision of the defence secretary to plant missiles in Turkey, something JFK opposed to. When Kruschev put his missiles on Cuba, JFK reacted how he wanted to because he didnt believe "strategic missiles" were right. You say he nearly started WW3....he prevented WW3. Being a good historian and critic means not being swayed by peoples opinions....including Che. Your views reflect exactly what Che said about Kennedy.

I suggest YOU, my friend, read YOUR history. Both sides of the argument.

I agree, with both of you to an extent. I think that JFK brought us on the verge of WW 3 but I admire him for standing up to Kruschev and not letting the soviet Union walk all over his country. He refused to back down under pressure. That is an admirable quality for any man to have.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Yes. And anyone who claims JFK would not have been a great President is simply wrong.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 3:35 am on Feb. 2, 2003
Yes. And anyone who claims JFK would not have been a great President is simply wrong.

exactly... I am getting sick of leftists refusing to acknowledge that he was a great man and a great president simply because he is associated with the cuban missile crisis.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

Spot on! The thing that annoys me is the way people on here seem to say whatever Che would've thought. They think that he would've acknowlegded that. But he would have despised it. And if they knew enough about Che, they would know that. Falling to the process of opinionated indoctrination, even at the hands of himself, would have apalled him.

They cannot look at Che's opinion on JFK and say it is exactly fair.....bit biased, however great Che was

[redstar2000]

What a bizarre thread!

"...it was the decision of the defense secretary to plant missiles in Turkey, something JFK [was] opposed to."

Socialismo o Muerte, do you understand anything about how the American government works? JFK was the Commander-in-chief...if he wanted missiles not to be installed in Turkey or wanted them withdrawn following their installation, he could order it done and it would be done.

"The Bay of Pigs was a stupid mistake." No, it was an act of imperialist aggression, a war crime pure and simple.

"I admire [JFK] for standing up to Khrushchev and not letting the Soviet Union walk all over his country. He refused to back down under pressure. That is an admirable quality for any man to have."

That is such an incredibly stupid thing to say that I'm nearly at a loss for a response. How is the USSR providing a nuclear deterrence for Cuba to defend itself against an imperial power that has already sponsered one invasion--how is that "walking all over the USA?"

And "not backing down under pressure?" The reason we're are alive is because Khrushchev "backed down under pressure"...but you admire JFK.

This is clearly another thread that belongs in the Opposing Ideologies forum...as the views being expressed are clearly pro-capitalist and pro-imperialist.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from Socialsmo o Muerte on 3:52 am on Feb. 2, 2003
Spot on! The thing that annoys me is the way people on here seem to say whatever Che would've thought. They think that he would've acknowlegded that. But he would have despised it. And if they knew enough about Che, they would know that. Falling to the process of opinionated indoctrination, even at the hands of himself, would have apalled him.

They cannot look at Che's opinion on JFK and say it is exactly fair.....bit biased, however great Che was

EXACTLY

I don't want to sound like an ass kisser but I really respect you views on many of the threads which you have posted in, most especially this one. I'm happy to see someone here who actually thinks for themself and not thinking from che or Marx's point of view.

[Socialsmo o Muerte]

redstar, you really are just helping my cause here. Firstly, this is a HISTORY debate, preferably for those who are trying to be HISTORIANS. Not a debate on who can match Che's views the best.
Second, yes, I admitted, The Bay Of Pigs was a cock-up. It shouldn't of happened, it was stupid. WHtas the point in having freedon if it doesnot entail the freedom to err.

Next, you really should read up before you speak. Yes, JFK would be able to move those missiles, in theory. The fact is, the american government is like the old medieval feudal system. Those below the leader usually have more power. No...those below DO have more power. It was my point. Andnow you have made me repeat it for no reason.

[man in the red suit]

Quote: from redstar2000 on 4:01 am on Feb. 2, 2003

"I admire [JFK] for standing up to Khrushchev and not letting the Soviet Union walk all over his country. He refused to back down under pressure. That is an admirable quality for any man to have."

That is such an incredibly stupid thing to say that I'm nearly at a loss for a response. How is the USSR providing a nuclear deterrence for Cuba to defend itself against an imperial power that has already sponsered one invasion--how is that "walking all over the USA?"

And "not backing down under pressure?" The reason we're are alive is because Khrushchev "backed down under pressure"...but you admire JFK.

This is clearly another thread that belongs in the Opposing Ideologies forum...as the views being expressed are clearly pro-capitalist and pro-imperialist.

first off, will you stop bringing up that stupid shit about this thread belonging in opposing ideologies. Who gives a flying fuck really? they shouldn't even have seperate sections. It is rediculous. I don't see what all this hoopla is about having every fucking thread in the corresponding page. It just takes away from the argument. So please stop *****ing about this belonging in a different page/thread whatever.

in response to your statement.

yes, america installed the jupiter missiles in trukey pointed towards russia, in turn he kruschev put his in cuba. The missiles were too close, therefore jfk took action.

this was an act of aggression in american eyes. russia put their missiles in a much more strategically beneficial area than we put our missiles in turkey.

and yes i admire jfk. He did not back down. Kruschev backed down, therefore that must imply that jfk did not. He was the stronger man and he protected his country by having the missiles removed. Do you think the missiles would have stayed there just for fun. They were there for a reason......an offensive.

(Edited by man in the red suit at 4:12 am on Feb. 2, 2003)