I find it very oppressing. In a new state I think everyone's opinion with descent arguments should be considerd and respected by the state and it's citizens.
One man can't run a complete nation.
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Why was Lenin opposed to the freedom of speech? Woudn't that be a bit oppressive?
I find it very oppressing. In a new state I think everyone's opinion with descent arguments should be considerd and respected by the state and it's citizens.
One man can't run a complete nation.
Let no one charge that socialists have arrayed class against class in this struggle. That has been done long since in the evolution of capitalist society. One class is small and rich and the other large and poor....One consists of capitalists and the other of workers. These two classes are at war. Every day of peace is at the expense of labor. There can be no peace and good will between these two essentially antagonistic economic classes. - Debs
Victorcommie, I don't think Lenin was opposed to "freedom of speech" in the abstract; if he opposed freedom of speech for particular people with particular ideas, that's a DIFFERENT question.
While a great many people applaud "freedom of speech" in the abstract, NO ONE--or at least VERY FEW people are willing to extend it to people with whom they VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE.
Examples: count the number of "stalinist" posts on this board in the last few days. Or ask yourself: do child pornographers have "freedom of speech"?
In other words, like "tolerance", freedom of speech is all well and good until matters get SERIOUS.
Listen to the worm of doubt for it speaks truth.
The Redstar2000 Papers
Also see this NEW SITE:@nti-dialectics
Shutting the mouths of ur political oponents clears the way for another Stalin.
Let no one charge that socialists have arrayed class against class in this struggle. That has been done long since in the evolution of capitalist society. One class is small and rich and the other large and poor....One consists of capitalists and the other of workers. These two classes are at war. Every day of peace is at the expense of labor. There can be no peace and good will between these two essentially antagonistic economic classes. - Debs
"Shutting the mouths of your political opponents clears the way for another Stalin."
It SURE can, CCCP, you're ABSOLUTELY right about that. In the case of the USSR, it DID exactly THAT!
I'm NOT saying that restricting freedom of speech is "a good thing" OR "a bad thing"---I'm saying that it is something THAT HAPPENS.
When things get SERIOUS, people draw lines...even when it would be to their advantage not too. You can always say to yourself and others: "Well, I WON'T DO IT because freedom of speech for all is A SACRED RIGHT." And you can be completely sincere about that.
Until someone says something that you regard as so outrageous, so disgusting, so "unspeakably" vile that you respond: freedom of speech is not for bastards like HIM!
Notice that Nazis have NO freedom-of-speech at che-lives? That doesn't bother me; does it bother you?
Listen to the worm of doubt for it speaks truth.
The Redstar2000 Papers
Also see this NEW SITE:@nti-dialectics
"Until someone says something that you regard as so outrageous, so disgusting, so "unspeakably" vile that you respond: freedom of speech is not for bastards like HIM! "
Welcome to CanadaMy favourite Canadian legal thing is the 'nonwithstanding' clause on the charter of rights and freedoms. lol. Its awesome. Everyone can do this except you cause the nonwithstandin clause says i can ignore the charter. lol
You are right redstar but we must do everything to avoid that ppl's mouths are beeing shut. But what about racists? Shut their mouth? And if u do so the state can blame someone of beeing racist and shutting his mouth that way.
In a new state we should have more than enough referanda (or something like that).
I think that everyone's opinion with descent arguments should be respected.
Let no one charge that socialists have arrayed class against class in this struggle. That has been done long since in the evolution of capitalist society. One class is small and rich and the other large and poor....One consists of capitalists and the other of workers. These two classes are at war. Every day of peace is at the expense of labor. There can be no peace and good will between these two essentially antagonistic economic classes. - Debs
Freedom of speech simbolizes equality. ANYBODY can talk until they start insulting someone(racists for example) or threatening somebody's personal freedom.
That way any new ideas that should come in a "new state" like comrade CCCR said it, would be at least acknowledged.
(Edited by Ari HR at 11:22 pm on Dec. 15, 2002)
Experience is a hard teacher becouse she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
- Vernon Sanders Law
I think freedom of speech should be allowed.
But to what extent is acceptable?
You don't want Nazi's going on about all their bollocks do you?
NO!!! And you rarely hear about their crap.
because they are extremists.
We are extremists from the other end of the spectrum, and we are not silenced (kind of, but not as much), which is nice.
give us an organisation or revolutionaries and we will overturn capitalism
Criticism is an important part of any socialist government. Without it, we cannot evolve to help the people. Silencing political opponents only results in a corrupted government. Such as the Soviet Union.
The Soviet Union could have been so much more. If only lenin had been an advocate of democracy and allowed basic freedoms. Instead it became a belligerent, corrupt and horrible place to live.
\"I believe in equality for everyone, except reporters and photographers.\"
-Mohandas Gandhi
That is true.
I have always thought that you need an oppostion to criticse everything you do...
And praise it
give us an organisation or revolutionaries and we will overturn capitalism
I agree...
Experience is a hard teacher becouse she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
- Vernon Sanders Law
A sort of controller/judge.
Let no one charge that socialists have arrayed class against class in this struggle. That has been done long since in the evolution of capitalist society. One class is small and rich and the other large and poor....One consists of capitalists and the other of workers. These two classes are at war. Every day of peace is at the expense of labor. There can be no peace and good will between these two essentially antagonistic economic classes. - Debs
Redstar makes a good point. I don't agree that the State's censorship of any view is right- even Nazi's and their ilk. As long as all they do is stand there and scream about hatred, they're within their rights. It's when they act on that hatred that the line's drawn.
I think where the US needs improvement is in the quality and variety of speech. There is a really limited range of (bad) arguments that are taken seriously, by the pubic and the media. That's where we come in.
There is a difference between criticism and the attacks of recessive revolutionaries.
For example - constructive criticism over 'skinhead' ideology? Which would be more promotional to the cause of democracy and freedom? Now, I agree people should be entitled to their opinions and should be allowed to express who they are - but physical violence, be it through hate/discrimination or any other from of ignorate rage must not be allowed.
Fundamentalists, Supremecists, Ethnocentrists - all destroy the underlying cause of a united humanity.
Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.10
We are radicals. Don't get radicals/extremists mixed up.
Under true communism freedom of speach of everyone, not just those who don't have extemist views, everyone including "skinheads", racists, extreme capitilists, and even communists who think that the present system is wrong.
Thats because under true communism, people just wont listen to the every decreasing minority of loud mouths. They will be shuned by volintary action, of the people, not by any law or goverment. We must remember that forceing people to do something is the way to go. We musn't force people to be silent on issues that some or even all may feel are offensive. If someone doesn't agree let them express there views, or just ignore the person.
I know it is quite hard sometimes but after all it seems to work on this board :+)
(Edited by apathy maybe at 8:54 pm on Dec. 21, 2002)
AM's got it right
If everyone just ignored people with opinions like that then we wouldn;'t have to worry about their views. They would just disappear. ignorance is bliss, after all.
Capitalism has made me a vessel for money-getting.
Vic, where did you get Lenin opposed to the freedom of speech? (I'm not being sarcastic, I just wanna know) You read it somewhere?
I mean, I was not aware he opposed to freedom of speech.
We have to put 'freedom of speech' into context here:
If there is to be a future communist revolution(successful), it WILL be won by bloody civil war - did the colonialists accept loyalists yelling for loyalty in the middle of the revolutionary war? No. Were the British Fascists allowed to speak in Britian during the second world war? No. Should then reactionary rhetoric, during a revolution, be permitted, going against all past successful wars/revolutions? No.
"An oppressed class which does not strive to learn to use arms, to acquire arms, only deserves to be treated like slaves. We cannot, unless we have become bourgeois pacifists or opportunists, forget that we are living in a class society from which there is no way out, nor can there be, save through the class struggle. In every class society, whether based on slavery, serfdom, or, as at present, wage-labor, the oppressor class is always armed."
VI Lenin
