thursday, la pen claims he is not anti semite, that he don't hate immigrates, and that he is not racist, but from his statements everyone can see what he really thinks. same can go to everyone else. people can lie you know.
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No, I never said this. I blame the people of Israel (or at least the majority of them, it should be noted that a select few wish for peace) for their tolerance of the crimes that are being committed against the native people of Palestine (mostly, as I said, their five year old boys). That said, there is plenty in the Jewish religion that preaches for the destruction of the native people of the Arab world and the Jewish people's "rights" to take the land, just like the Muslim religion states that all Jewish people should be killed.
I'm afraid there is no logic to begin with that can go wrong. Saying that comrade Stalin was an anti-Semitist even when he said he was against such is just so backward it leaves logic in the gutter.
'We began with a revolutionary people'
thursday, la pen claims he is not anti semite, that he don't hate immigrates, and that he is not racist, but from his statements everyone can see what he really thinks. same can go to everyone else. people can lie you know.
ND you have a point there, I mean Zinoviev said he was pro-Soviet, this Erlich guy said he was anti-Zionist. The difference between Stalin and Le-Pen though is that Stalin was a member of the CPSU while Le-Pen is a member of a Fascist party. Neither did Stalin declare the Holocaust 'A Detail of History'.
One Albert Einstein signed a petition in the late 40's against what Isreal was doing, why should Stalin not act against spy's and agents who are in the pay of that precise same state?
That's something that really annoys me now that I'm talking about it. Einstein, Brecht, HG Wells and dozens of others saw the Soviet Union under Stalin and they declared 'It worked' and it 'Was the way of the future'. Such outstanding personalities and historical figures never said the same of the Third Reich (that was restricted to discredited ex monarchs and newspaper tycoons). In America you hear King's speech 'I have a Dream' over and over again but the man also claimed that 'America was on the wrong side of Revolution', never hear that.
'What is 11 million dollars compared to the love of 11 million Cubans' Felix Savon
''That morning, my father took my hand and we went out. I saw how upset all the Algerians looked and how the French were rejoicing. I asked my father what had happened. He gravely replied: 'Stalin is dead...' I asked who Stalin was. My father said: 'He was the greatest man of our time. He was the leader of the Soviet Union, the greatest revolutionary country. Stalin was the son of a cobbler.' And I thought the son of a cobbler, someone like me...' Algerian Revolutionary in fight against French Imperialism.
The World Revolution is ongoing history. Even if you win the war, which I don’t think you will, the World Revolution will not and cannot be stooped by military means, Your very powerful army can do much harm to us, can kill many of our people - but it cannot kill ideas! Its movement might seem dormant to you at the moment, but it s there and will come to the fore again out of the awakening of the poor, the downtrodden orginary people the world over in Africa, the Americas, in Asia and Europe too. People in their masses will one day understand that it is the power of capital over them which not only oppresses and robs them, but stifles their human potential, which either uses or discards them as mere pawns to make monetary profit out of the,. Once the people grasp that idea, it will mature into an almost material force in popular uprisings like spreading wildfires and will do what has to be done in the name of humanity. It will not be Russia who will do it for them, although the Russian working people were the first who have borken the chains. The people of the will do it for themselves in their own countries, against their own oppressors, in their own ways and in their own time!’
A 'Stalinist Beuracrate' to his Fascist Guards in Nazi Camp.
i want you to prove me that anna puwker, the doctors, the jewish poeple anti fascist committee, the jewish poets, slansky and the other ten czechoslovakian communists were all zionist spies. one could be a zionist spy, but suddenly the rumania, czechoslovakia and the USSR is filled with spies!? and let look at the history of slansky:
1,921-joins the communist party.
1,924-become the editor of the periodical of the communist party,"roda pravo".
1,935-elected to the national assembly.
1,938-aftet the german conquer of czechoslovakia he moves to the USSR and become one of the prominent leaders of the CP. later he moves to slovakia and joins the anti nazi resistance.
1,948-slansky is now the general secretary of CP. he take an active part in the communist take over.
now how come this dedicated men is becoming all of a sudden a zionist spy? and if you are going to say he admitted this, he was forced to say it. he said it after he was tortured.
How many times do I have to explain this to u. Burning down a Jewish religios institution wwould be comparable to burning down a mosque. However Yidddish was simply a language spoken by a particular national minority in estern europe and the institution was dedicted to writing in this language. THere were a great number of secular comminist Yiddish writers one of whom was Itsik Feffer (executed 1952 alnong with 12 other members of the Jewish peoples anti fascist committee which was set up by stalin during the war). Your justification is similar to justifying burning down a chechen library because the books may be islamic-fundamentalist
i want to focus on the history of anna puwker. in 1,922 she became a member of the central committee of the rumanian communist party, and in WW2 she organized in the USSR rumanian units made of rumanian pow that helped the red army. she looked pretty dedicated to me. how come she all of a sudden became a zionist spy? and i will like to know the names of the other people that were executed along with slansky.
Maybe Anna Puwker was planning something.
Authority can sometimes justify itself.
~The Anarchist Tension
Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.90
While I can't speak for others, comrade Clay, I can say that I've LEARNED BETTER than to argue the arcana of Soviet history with you; I'm just not in your class on that subject.
Nevertheless, it seems to me the points raised by ND and Reuben are at least worthy of consideration. Of course, Stalin's enemies will accuse him of personal responsibility for every shitstorm of the 20th century. But could not SOME of these accusations be valid? Is it ALL a gigantic hoax?
Could we not admit that Stalin and the USSR WERE guilty of some anti-semitic policies and deeds WITHOUT trying to paint Stalin as a Hitler-wannabe? After all, he wasn't.
I've said before, comrade Clay, that I appreciate your efforts to correct the impression that we all receive in capitalist schoolrooms--that Stalin was the devil incarnate. But I still believe you go FAR too far in the other direction...presenting an overly-idealized and ultimately false picture of the USSR in general and Stalin in particular.
The USSR was not the hell-hole that the capitalist media created; but jewish or otherwise, it was NOT A REAL FUN PLACE TO BE, EITHER! I can't help but think if you had had the opportunity to live in the USSR in that period, you would end up agreeing with me.
Listen to the worm of doubt for it speaks truth.
The Redstar2000 Papers
Also see this NEW SITE:@nti-dialectics
Redstar 2000, ofcourse ND and Reuben's points (well some of them anyway) have value and should be considered. But I get annoyed when I have to go around answering questions and having to refute lies when not one person on this entire board can be bothered to reply to threads such as the 'We Shall Not Allow Criticism of Stalin' or the Lenin/Stalin article I posted.
'Stalin and USSR guilty of anti-semitic deeds' no I will not admit that. Ofcourse innocent people suffered and sometimes died as a result os Stalin's policies, and when the fight against Zionism took on greater importance no doubt some Soviet officials would of used petty prejudice to acheive some victory 'For Mother Russia' or whatever. I once read somewhere that 'Communism eliminates exploitation not sin'.
You can interprate if you wan't that the fight against Zionism was just a smoke-screen for evil Stalin to hid his anti-semitic policy's. But equally you could say that because MI5 arrested non-Jewish, western European looking white people when they cracked down on Mosley's Fascists in 1940 that they were racist.
I'm still unaware of any mass convertion of people of non-Jewish ethnicity to Zionism.
Reuben uses this one example of a Yiddish Library being burnt down. Once again did Stalin know about this? Did He pacificly order it? What were the circumstances behind it, why were troops there anyway (and as I said before in the early 30's there is a 2nd Civil War going on)? What happened afterwards? Did anybody actually die in this incident? What was printed in these books, as far as you know it could of been alsoughts of Zionist rubbish? If it was a case of Stalin being anti-semitic then surely every single Yiddish library would of been burnt down (and far worse) and he/she has yet to provide a source for this. Dare I say it's from the same sought of 'Sources' which say Stalin murdered tens of millions.
This 'Doctors plot', nine doctors are arrested on charges of spying and plotting to assainate government leaders, six of whom happen to be Jewish. After some time in custody they are realesed and cleared of all charges.
Those are the FACTS, now I can almost guarentte that you will argue that the only reason they were realased was because Stalin died. But in that article I gave you which showed that Slansky was guilty, it gives you a example of somebody being released the moment they are found to be innocent. This happened thousands of times under Stalin, when somebody was found to be innocent they were realesed.
As I said in the other thread and on the previous page inflautration can reach high places. Numerous times in the 1900's it was revealed that some of the leading members of the Bolshevik party were infact Okrahna informants and spys. Hitler's brother in law was a MI6 spy, even if you despise Hitler which I'm sure everybody on this board does, I'm not going to blame him for executing spys.
'What is 11 million dollars compared to the love of 11 million Cubans' Felix Savon
''That morning, my father took my hand and we went out. I saw how upset all the Algerians looked and how the French were rejoicing. I asked my father what had happened. He gravely replied: 'Stalin is dead...' I asked who Stalin was. My father said: 'He was the greatest man of our time. He was the leader of the Soviet Union, the greatest revolutionary country. Stalin was the son of a cobbler.' And I thought the son of a cobbler, someone like me...' Algerian Revolutionary in fight against French Imperialism.
The World Revolution is ongoing history. Even if you win the war, which I don’t think you will, the World Revolution will not and cannot be stooped by military means, Your very powerful army can do much harm to us, can kill many of our people - but it cannot kill ideas! Its movement might seem dormant to you at the moment, but it s there and will come to the fore again out of the awakening of the poor, the downtrodden orginary people the world over in Africa, the Americas, in Asia and Europe too. People in their masses will one day understand that it is the power of capital over them which not only oppresses and robs them, but stifles their human potential, which either uses or discards them as mere pawns to make monetary profit out of the,. Once the people grasp that idea, it will mature into an almost material force in popular uprisings like spreading wildfires and will do what has to be done in the name of humanity. It will not be Russia who will do it for them, although the Russian working people were the first who have borken the chains. The people of the will do it for themselves in their own countries, against their own oppressors, in their own ways and in their own time!’
A 'Stalinist Beuracrate' to his Fascist Guards in Nazi Camp.
cassius, excuse me for the delay, but i didn't manage to sleep last night so i decided to sleep in the noon(it was noon in israeli time at least). back to the topic. the article that you gave me, in which forum? if you mean the one called "Revisionism Yesterday and Today", then it was written that slansky was innocent and in 1,953 he was absolved, but that's after he was executed in 1,952!!! the article didn't said he was guilty, it said he was absolved by stalin. and in politics you said slansky admitted that he knew and helped tito plan to break the eastern europe, as i already said, he was tortured. he would say anything.
"I've said before, comrade Clay, that I appreciate your efforts to correct the impression that we all receive in capitalist schoolrooms--that Stalin was the devil incarnate. But I still believe you go FAR too far in the other direction...presenting an overly-idealized and ultimately false picture of the USSR in general and Stalin in particular. "
agree with you again redstar. and my grandmother also told me stalin killed a jewish film director for going out with stalin daughter. she didn't knew it from her time in the USSR of course, so next time i meet her i will ask where did she heard it. right now i think this detail in un debatable.
Erm New Democracy I think you've misunderstood the article completely. In the other forum (not the one where I posted the article) I said that Slansky begins in the trial admitting that as far back as 1943/44 Tito's break with the Soviet Union had been planned. Now then according to Anthony Eden (NOT Churchill that was my bad) and some of Tito's closest comrades this would be correct.
What the article about Revisionism showed you was two things, one when people were found to be innocent they were released from prison. Second of all that man who was wrongly imprisoned was imprisoned because of the direct intervention of the Slansky government.
'What is 11 million dollars compared to the love of 11 million Cubans' Felix Savon
''That morning, my father took my hand and we went out. I saw how upset all the Algerians looked and how the French were rejoicing. I asked my father what had happened. He gravely replied: 'Stalin is dead...' I asked who Stalin was. My father said: 'He was the greatest man of our time. He was the leader of the Soviet Union, the greatest revolutionary country. Stalin was the son of a cobbler.' And I thought the son of a cobbler, someone like me...' Algerian Revolutionary in fight against French Imperialism.
The World Revolution is ongoing history. Even if you win the war, which I don’t think you will, the World Revolution will not and cannot be stooped by military means, Your very powerful army can do much harm to us, can kill many of our people - but it cannot kill ideas! Its movement might seem dormant to you at the moment, but it s there and will come to the fore again out of the awakening of the poor, the downtrodden orginary people the world over in Africa, the Americas, in Asia and Europe too. People in their masses will one day understand that it is the power of capital over them which not only oppresses and robs them, but stifles their human potential, which either uses or discards them as mere pawns to make monetary profit out of the,. Once the people grasp that idea, it will mature into an almost material force in popular uprisings like spreading wildfires and will do what has to be done in the name of humanity. It will not be Russia who will do it for them, although the Russian working people were the first who have borken the chains. The people of the will do it for themselves in their own countries, against their own oppressors, in their own ways and in their own time!’
A 'Stalinist Beuracrate' to his Fascist Guards in Nazi Camp.
just wondering: how could slansky get in touch with tito while he is in slovakia fighting the nazis?
now when i think about it he was probably forced to admit something which is obviously not true.
Well according to other sources other than Slansky it is true. And if you don't believe Slansky couldn't contact anyone in the war, then your deeply mistaken. Just check out where and when Tito travelled, there's also such things as agents etc, etc.
'What is 11 million dollars compared to the love of 11 million Cubans' Felix Savon
''That morning, my father took my hand and we went out. I saw how upset all the Algerians looked and how the French were rejoicing. I asked my father what had happened. He gravely replied: 'Stalin is dead...' I asked who Stalin was. My father said: 'He was the greatest man of our time. He was the leader of the Soviet Union, the greatest revolutionary country. Stalin was the son of a cobbler.' And I thought the son of a cobbler, someone like me...' Algerian Revolutionary in fight against French Imperialism.
The World Revolution is ongoing history. Even if you win the war, which I don’t think you will, the World Revolution will not and cannot be stooped by military means, Your very powerful army can do much harm to us, can kill many of our people - but it cannot kill ideas! Its movement might seem dormant to you at the moment, but it s there and will come to the fore again out of the awakening of the poor, the downtrodden orginary people the world over in Africa, the Americas, in Asia and Europe too. People in their masses will one day understand that it is the power of capital over them which not only oppresses and robs them, but stifles their human potential, which either uses or discards them as mere pawns to make monetary profit out of the,. Once the people grasp that idea, it will mature into an almost material force in popular uprisings like spreading wildfires and will do what has to be done in the name of humanity. It will not be Russia who will do it for them, although the Russian working people were the first who have borken the chains. The people of the will do it for themselves in their own countries, against their own oppressors, in their own ways and in their own time!’
A 'Stalinist Beuracrate' to his Fascist Guards in Nazi Camp.
i know, but i seems very weird. i need to read about slansky and tito more. and if they really planned the break with the USSR, what were their motivations? slansky looks to dedicated to do such a thing. i also need to know more about the people that approved this information.
just wondering; what was the motivation of tito and slansky to do such a thing? i see it a very unreasonable that tito just said one day in WW2 "hey! i think just to screw thye workers and help western imperialism, i wll break up with stalin!!! and slansky could help too". i just don't see what was their motivation to do this alleged crime.
Cassius,
Sorry or the delay, I've been busy with many things, amongst other visiting the picket lines of the FBU strike. Now let's go to your replies
- I said: ''Cosmopolitanism was the same word used in Czarist times for anti-semitic pogroms. The following reports are from the State-controlled Soviet press.''
You replied: "Really I thought in Czarist times it went something along the lines of 'THe baby eating, christ killing Jews are going to kidnap are children. Let's kill the Yidish scum and make Russia safe for Christianity''. "
Well, you are WRONG, and actually this proves your dishonest method of debating. You just invent things to back up your pre-concived ideas. The TRUTH is, and you can find out very easily if you bother to investigate, that the accusation of "cosmopolitanism" was common under Czarism and was meant as an anti-semitic attack on the Jews. In fact the Union of teh Russian People, otherwise known as the Black Hundreds, the well known extreme right wing pogromist anti-semitic organisation under the Czars, had amongst its stated aims the fight against "cosmopolitanism". The use of such a term by a the soviet press of this term in relation to the trial of Jews should be to you a clear indication of anti-semitism, if you just bothered to open your brain.
- I quoted the Article on Cosmopolitanism and the "Doctors Plot" Trud (February 18, 1953)''
You said: "Hmm now I don't see anything anti-semitic in there. True Pravda may be being a bit 'Sensationalist' but what journalists aren't? It just gives you the facts and note when it sais 'Most' are Jewish. Perhaps this could be interprated as enflaming a situation and maybe it could of been worded better. But the article just gives you the FACTS and makes no suggestion of anti-semitism. "
Now, Cassius, really, if a capitalist paper in Britain reports about a mugging or a rape and says "the suspects are black male", then it is clear to me that the reference to their race (which is relevant to the news) is clearly meant to be racist. If a Soviet newspaper in 1953 reports about "homicidal doctors, who had become monsters in human form", monsters Cassius, nothing less than monsters in human form, and then mentions that most of them were Jews, this is clearly anti-semitism to me. The fact that they were Jews is not relevant at all.
- I quote from the article: "Cosmopolitanism is not just a hostile ideology. Cosmopolitanism is the savage struggle of the doomed classes against new social forces, against everything progressive....
It is not pure chance that the cosmopolitans and hardened bourgeois nationalists are given the most foul and filthy tasks by the instigators of war, including murder, espionage, sabotage, wrecking, even the assassination of the best representatives of the Russian nation. New evidence of this is the unmasking, by the organs of State security of the USSR, of a terrorist group of doctor-poisoners, enemies of the people, whose aim was to shorten the lives of active figures of the USSR.''
and you said "I can't even see the word 'Jew' in here, infact it doesn't even mention Zionism, which people who take your historical perspective claim Stalin only used as cover. "
I already explained that cosmopolitanism is a coded word for anti-semitism, that was commonly used before tehr evolution by the Black Hundreds and that was known to all in 1953 Russia. Let's see how you reply to that!!!
You also say: "Oh now we see the word 'Jew', my bad. But this still gives you the FACTS, if my local tabloid described Hamas as a 'Islamic' terrioritst (yes, yes one man's terriorist is another's freedom fighter so nobody go flaming me) orginisation, you could equally interpret that as rascist, but you could equally justify that claim as rubbish and that the article is presenting the facts." If my local newspaper say that Hamas is an Islamic terrorist organisation but then does not say that Timothy McVeigh is a Christian terrorism, then I, a communist, quickly draw the conclussion that my local tabloid is wiping up anti-Islamic racism!! What conclussion do you draw!???
I quoted: ''Within a month of Stalin's death on March 5, 1953, an announcement in Pravda acknowledged that the group of doctors had been arrested falsely and had been freed.''
You replied: "So they were cleared of charges of spying (including I presume the men that weren't Jewish). Hooray everybody lives happily ever after. Note that even when Stalin was alive people were realeased from prison if they were found to be innocent."
No, sorry, Cassius. The doctors were only cleared because Stalin died. Actually in clearing the doctors the party said that they had been WRONGLY ACCUSED and that confessions had been extracted from them with TORTURE!! That had hapenned under Stalin. Remember that these were the "homicidal doctors, who had become monsters in human form".
Now to other points that you added in this thread:
"As I said in the other thread Bela Kun disapeared in the 1930's, nobody knows what happened to the man."
Most authors admit that Bela Kun was executed during the purges (I can give you a full list of authors if you want). There is also a very good book called The Life of a Communist Revolutionary, Béla Kun by Borsányi, György. This guy is a Hungarian historian who had full access to the Hungarian party archives when researching this book and he proves, quite conclusively in my opinion, that Kun was killed during Stalin's purges. Bela Kun was a member of the Pesidium of the Communist Internation from 1923 to 1936. Also he was a fierce opponent of Trotsky, even in the times of Lenin, since Trotsky, in agreement with Lenin, was very critical of his leadership of the Hungarian revoluion in 1919 and his intervention in Germany in 1921.
"How do you know that the members of the anti-fascist committe weren't Western/Zionist spys? So what if they helped fight against Nazis, so did crazy Serbian nationalists (although not very well) that doesn't make them allies. "
Cassius, calm down and start to think. Serbian nationalists were reactionary monarchists, they did not hide the fact. These people had been Communist Party members all their lives! Here is Lozovski bio in case you did not read it the first time:
"Born in 1878, Solomon Lozovsky joined the Marxist underground in 1901. He was a prominent enough revolutionary to know Lenin well and after the October Revolution played a major role in the Profintern, the international communist-controlled trade-union movement, and in the Communist International. (His daughter also assumed significant responsibilities, serving as secretary and confidante to Lenin's widow Nadezhda Krupskaya from 1919 to 1939.) Lozovsky survived Stalin's purges of the 1930s and was even elevated in 1939 when Vyacheslav Molotov, who had replaced Maxim Litvinov as Soviet foreign minister, appointed Lozovsky one of three deputy foreign ministers During the war, Lozovsky took on additional responsibilities as vice-chairman of the Soviet Information Bureau (Sovinformburo) which was charged with dealing with the Western press and supervised the work of the JAC."
You also say: "Is it to unbelievable that with the creation of the state of Isreal which was allready commiting grave crimes against the Arab people would of indulged in crimes against the Soviet Union?"
Once again, Cassius, thinking usually helps. First of all these people were all arrested in 1948 BEFORE the creation of the state of Israel. Furthermore, the creation of the state of Israel was at first ONLY recognised by the SOVIET UNION. In 1948 in order to defend the creation of Israel one did NOT need to oppose the Soviet Union!
You say: "Yiddish libraries, apart from Reuben's testimony (I gather a youngster from London) what do you base this on? And if it is true, I see no problem with it (as long as their's no one inside)"
So basically you agree with burning down libraries??? Lenin's position was against religion, but surely he would have never thought of fighting against religion by burning down libraries (a Yiddish library does not even mean a religious library as Reuben explained). Lenin's position , explained in a hundred articles and speeches was that the way to fight against religion was to erradicate its material causes (oppression, ignorance, etc), never to use violence or coercion against people for their religious beliefs.
This is also you: "The Jews who rose up in the Ghetto in Warsaw were Marxists (which mean's pro-Stalin) for god's sake."
Well, there were actually two uprisings, one in 1943 and another one in 1944. I would say that although communists played a role, particularly in the first one, the majority of the forces fought under the banner of the ZOB, a combat organisation set up by the Jewish labour movement organisation BUND. Furthermore at the time of the second uprising, Stalin's troops sat on the outskirsts of Warsaw for 63 days while the Germans put down the uprising, only taking the city later on.
I think that this deals sufficiently with your points in this thread.
Now some additional points on anti-semitism. During the Trials many of the accused were referred to by their family names rather than by their party names. For instance Lev Trotsky who was known to everyone by that name was called Lev Bronstein (his Jewish family name). No one had used that in official party or Soviet documents EVER. Same was the case with Zinoviev and Kamenev (Rosenfeld and Radomyslsky, I am sure no-one in the discussion knew of their family names!). What is that but drawing attention to the fact they they are from Jewish families. With what intention, that of wipping up anti-semitic prejudices!
Also, Lozovski (accused in the case of the Jewish Anti-fascist cte) explained in his trial (which was not a public trial) how he had been subjedted to anti-semitic attacks on the part of investigator Komarov. He was told that "Jews were a rotten people, that Jews were crooks, good for nothings and scum, that the whole opposition was made up of Jews, and that all Jews sputter at the Soviet regime, that Jews wanted to kill all Russians". This comes from the Official Transcript of the Trial of the Members of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, from the Moscow archives which has now been published. In case you came up with the idea that Stalin knew nothing about this, I'll just tell you in advance that because the trial included a CC member (Lozovsky) some of the investigations (which lasted 4 years during which these people remained in prison) were conducted in front of the CC (and Stalin was present!)
OK, I will write up a reply to the other thread on the Purges tomorrow if I have the time.
Comradely,
redjordi
''Cassius,
Sorry or the delay, I've been busy with many things, amongst other visiting the picket lines of the FBU strike.''
Ignoring this whole Stalin thing for the moment, how was that and what's the mood? I see other workers (well teachers atleast) have also voiced solidarity.
''You replied: "Really I thought in Czarist times it went something along the lines of 'THe baby eating, christ killing Jews are going to kidnap are children. Let's kill the Yidish scum and make Russia safe for Christianity''. "
Well, you are WRONG, and actually this proves your dishonest method of debating. You just invent things to back up your pre-concived ideas. The TRUTH is, and you can find out very easily if you bother to investigate, that the accusation of "cosmopolitanism" was common under Czarism and was meant as an anti-semitic attack on the Jews. In fact the Union of teh Russian People, otherwise known as the Black Hundreds, the well known extreme right wing pogromist anti-semitic organisation under the Czars, had amongst its stated aims the fight against "cosmopolitanism". The use of such a term by a the soviet press of this term in relation to the trial of Jews should be to you a clear indication of anti-semitism, if you just bothered to open your brain.''
Now then throughout this entire post you reccomend me to 'calm down', 'Bothered to open your brain' ?? I'll take your word about 'Cosmopolitism' being a term used by anti-semitics. However you respond to my response that it is basically 'wrong'. The sought of language used in Czarist press was very much along the lines of 'Christ Killing' and 'Eating babies' etc. The same cannot be found in this Pravda article.
- I quoted the Article on Cosmopolitanism and the "Doctors Plot" Trud (February 18, 1953)''
You said: "Hmm now I don't see anything anti-semitic in there. True Pravda may be being a bit 'Sensationalist' but what journalists aren't? It just gives you the facts and note when it sais 'Most' are Jewish. Perhaps this could be interprated as enflaming a situation and maybe it could of been worded better. But the article just gives you the FACTS and makes no suggestion of anti-semitism. "
Now, Cassius, really, if a capitalist paper in Britain reports about a mugging or a rape and says "the suspects are black male", then it is clear to me that the reference to their race (which is relevant to the news) is clearly meant to be racist. If a Soviet newspaper in 1953 reports about "homicidal doctors, who had become monsters in human form", monsters Cassius, nothing less than monsters in human form, and then mentions that most of them were Jews, this is clearly anti-semitism to me. The fact that they were Jews is not relevant at all.''
'Most' Jewish, three of them weren't, nowhere do I see Pravda saying that the other three weren't 'Monsters'. The fact that six of them happened to be Jewish is relavent (as is your example of a Black man) when the group are alledged to be spys for Isreal and Zionists.
''and you said "I can't even see the word 'Jew' in here, infact it doesn't even mention Zionism, which people who take your historical perspective claim Stalin only used as cover. "
I already explained that cosmopolitanism is a coded word for anti-semitism, that was commonly used before tehr evolution by the Black Hundreds and that was known to all in 1953 Russia. Let's see how you reply to that!!!''
That three of them were NOT Jewish. And what is a precise defintion of Cosmopolitanism?
''You also say: "Oh now we see the word 'Jew', my bad. But this still gives you the FACTS, if my local tabloid described Hamas as a 'Islamic' terrioritst (yes, yes one man's terriorist is another's freedom fighter so nobody go flaming me) orginisation, you could equally interpret that as rascist, but you could equally justify that claim as rubbish and that the article is presenting the facts." If my local newspaper say that Hamas is an Islamic terrorist organisation but then does not say that Timothy McVeigh is a Christian terrorism, then I, a communist, quickly draw the conclussion that my local tabloid is wiping up anti-Islamic racism!! What conclussion do you draw!???''
I agree with you however what you appear to be ignoring is that the people arrested were believed to be spys for Isreal (whether acting out of ideology or material benefits from Mossad) and Zionists, therefor they are Jewish terriorists. Which is exactly the same as describing Hamas as Islamic terriorists.
''You replied: "So they were cleared of charges of spying (including I presume the men that weren't Jewish). Hooray everybody lives happily ever after. Note that even when Stalin was alive people were realeased from prison if they were found to be innocent."
No, sorry, Cassius. The doctors were only cleared because Stalin died. Actually in clearing the doctors the party said that they had been WRONGLY ACCUSED and that confessions had been extracted from them with TORTURE!! That had hapenned under Stalin. Remember that these were the "homicidal doctors, who had become monsters in human form".
People were realeased when they were found to be innocent when Stalin was alive, over 110,000 infact. In that article I gave New Democracy, a man was immediantly realesed when he was found to be innocent. I said later on in this thread that you would use this as a argument, and frankly it's not a very good argument.
''Now to other points that you added in this thread:
"As I said in the other thread Bela Kun disapeared in the 1930's, nobody knows what happened to the man."
Most authors admit that Bela Kun was executed during the purges (I can give you a full list of authors if you want). There is also a very good book called The Life of a Communist Revolutionary, Béla Kun by Borsányi, György. This guy is a Hungarian historian who had full access to the Hungarian party archives when researching this book and he proves, quite conclusively in my opinion, that Kun was killed during Stalin's purges. Bela Kun was a member of the Pesidium of the Communist Internation from 1923 to 1936. Also he was a fierce opponent of Trotsky, even in the times of Lenin, since Trotsky, in agreement with Lenin, was very critical of his leadership of the Hungarian revoluion in 1919 and his intervention in Germany in 1921.''
Well I could be wrong, but I remember hearing that the man disapeared in the mid 1930's. So what if he opposed Trotsky, so did Zioneve at one point. And lets say that for one moment that it was evil paranoid Stalin just being well paranoid. Does this prove he was anti-semitic which was what you were trying to prove with this thread?
''Cassius, calm down and start to think. Serbian nationalists were reactionary monarchists, they did not hide the fact. These people had been Communist Party members all their lives! Here is Lozovski bio in case you did not read it the first time:
"Born in 1878, Solomon Lozovsky joined the Marxist underground in 1901. He was a prominent enough revolutionary to know Lenin well and after the October Revolution played a major role in the Profintern, the international communist-controlled trade-union movement, and in the Communist International. (His daughter also assumed significant responsibilities, serving as secretary and confidante to Lenin's widow Nadezhda Krupskaya from 1919 to 1939.) Lozovsky survived Stalin's purges of the 1930s and was even elevated in 1939 when Vyacheslav Molotov, who had replaced Maxim Litvinov as Soviet foreign minister, appointed Lozovsky one of three deputy foreign ministers During the war, Lozovsky took on additional responsibilities as vice-chairman of the Soviet Information Bureau (Sovinformburo) which was charged with dealing with the Western press and supervised the work of the JAC."
What's all this suppose to say? Numerous times in the 1900's it was revealed that leading members of the Bolshevik Party were infact Okrahna spys and informants, Hitler's brother in law was a MI6 spy, a member of Queen Elizabeth's entourage was revealed to be a KGB spy in the 1980's. My point is that inflautration can reach high places.
''You also say: "Is it to unbelievable that with the creation of the state of Isreal which was allready commiting grave crimes against the Arab people would of indulged in crimes against the Soviet Union?"
Once again, Cassius, thinking usually helps. First of all these people were all arrested in 1948 BEFORE the creation of the state of Israel.''
What, from a Pravda article in the early 1950's? This was when the 'Doctor's plot' was in the last months of Stalin's life. Nobody would of been executed in the time you state since the death penalty was officially abolished between 1946 and 1950.
''Furthermore, the creation of the state of Israel was at first ONLY recognised by the SOVIET UNION.''
Which would make it the first state to regonise the state of Isreal. 'Only' state, for how long a few weeks or months?
''In 1948 in order to defend the creation of Israel one did NOT need to oppose the Soviet Union!''''
I generally don't understand this, could you enlighten me?
''You say: "Yiddish libraries, apart from Reuben's testimony (I gather a youngster from London) what do you base this on? And if it is true, I see no problem with it (as long as their's no one inside)"
So basically you agree with burning down libraries???''
Ofcourse not, I have a funny feeling you know fully well that isn't what I was saying but your just trying to score points or whatever. The point I was making was that I see nothing wrong with getting rid of Religious rubbish whether it be Jewish, Christian or Islamic. I later admitted that perhaps it should of been done in a far more discreet way. I also asked Reuben a series of questions (which are perfectly valid considering we are studying history here) regarding that one example.
''Lenin's position was against religion, but surely he would have never thought of fighting against religion by burning down libraries (a Yiddish library does not even mean a religious library as Reuben explained). Lenin's position , explained in a hundred articles and speeches was that the way to fight against religion was to erradicate its material causes (oppression, ignorance, etc), never to use violence or coercion against people for their religious beliefs.''
Now we are really falling into this 'Lenin good, Stalin Evil'. Comeon it's a known FACT that the Red Army during the civil war ransacked churches, burn't down Mosques and saved it's vengence for priests inflicting rather unpleasant deaths on them. Whether you agree with it or not that's what happened, under Lenin.
If you say Lenin didn't know of this going on then you can equally say that Stalin did not know of this Yiddish library being burnt down, infact you have more justification with believing Stalin than Lenin.
''This is also you: "The Jews who rose up in the Ghetto in Warsaw were Marxists (which mean's pro-Stalin) for god's sake."
Well, there were actually two uprisings, one in 1943 and another one in 1944. I would say that although communists played a role, particularly in the first one, the majority of the forces fought under the banner of the ZOB, a combat organisation set up by the Jewish labour movement organisation BUND.''
No real argument from me here, but part of the reason why the Polish Home Army refused to send them weapons was because they had links to Moscow. A large minority were Communists. The second of all had nothing to do with Jews, hell some accounts say the Polish Home Army were said to be executing Jews. Don't ask for a source on that though.
''Furthermore at the time of the second uprising, Stalin's troops sat on the outskirsts of Warsaw for 63 days while the Germans put down the uprising, only taking the city later on.''
Wrong, the Red Army had outrun it's supply lines (hundreds of miles in a matter of weeks) and at the precise time a German counter-attack led by crack divisions (Herman Georing Division). Despite this the Red Army attempted numerous assaults across the Vistula river throughout late August and early September but was pushed back each time.
''Now some additional points on anti-semitism. During the Trials many of the accused were referred to by their family names rather than by their party names. For instance Lev Trotsky who was known to everyone by that name was called Lev Bronstein (his Jewish family name). No one had used that in official party or Soviet documents EVER. Same was the case with Zinoviev and Kamenev (Rosenfeld and Radomyslsky, I am sure no-one in the discussion knew of their family names!). What is that but drawing attention to the fact they they are from Jewish families. With what intention, that of wipping up anti-semitic prejudices!''
I'm no expert on Law but in a court of law the defandants real name tends to be used. And not everyone who was bought to trial was Jewish, presumably there real names were used to.
''Also, Lozovski (accused in the case of the Jewish Anti-fascist cte) explained in his trial (which was not a public trial) how he had been subjedted to anti-semitic attacks on the part of investigator Komarov. He was told that "Jews were a rotten people, that Jews were crooks, good for nothings and scum, that the whole opposition was made up of Jews, and that all Jews sputter at the Soviet regime, that Jews wanted to kill all Russians". This comes from the Official Transcript of the Trial of the Members of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, from the Moscow archives which has now been published. In case you came up with the idea that Stalin knew nothing about this, I'll just tell you in advance that because the trial included a CC member (Lozovsky) some of the investigations (which lasted 4 years during which these people remained in prison) were conducted in front of the CC (and Stalin was present!)''
So this guy is subjected to racial abuse by a prosecutor and as such feels the need to protest this (and justly so), and he even gets to protest this infront of the main man himself. Wow talk about paranoid dictator, this guy's trial lasted four years. Then that ought to tell you that it was NOT a case of a paranoid dictator killing everybody, if that were the case then he wouldn't of bothered with a trial. As you say this particular trial wasn't public so presumably very few new about it, so it can NOT be a case of Stalin wanting to seem legitimate.
Clearly the guy was arrested with good reason.
'What is 11 million dollars compared to the love of 11 million Cubans' Felix Savon
''That morning, my father took my hand and we went out. I saw how upset all the Algerians looked and how the French were rejoicing. I asked my father what had happened. He gravely replied: 'Stalin is dead...' I asked who Stalin was. My father said: 'He was the greatest man of our time. He was the leader of the Soviet Union, the greatest revolutionary country. Stalin was the son of a cobbler.' And I thought the son of a cobbler, someone like me...' Algerian Revolutionary in fight against French Imperialism.
The World Revolution is ongoing history. Even if you win the war, which I don’t think you will, the World Revolution will not and cannot be stooped by military means, Your very powerful army can do much harm to us, can kill many of our people - but it cannot kill ideas! Its movement might seem dormant to you at the moment, but it s there and will come to the fore again out of the awakening of the poor, the downtrodden orginary people the world over in Africa, the Americas, in Asia and Europe too. People in their masses will one day understand that it is the power of capital over them which not only oppresses and robs them, but stifles their human potential, which either uses or discards them as mere pawns to make monetary profit out of the,. Once the people grasp that idea, it will mature into an almost material force in popular uprisings like spreading wildfires and will do what has to be done in the name of humanity. It will not be Russia who will do it for them, although the Russian working people were the first who have borken the chains. The people of the will do it for themselves in their own countries, against their own oppressors, in their own ways and in their own time!’
A 'Stalinist Beuracrate' to his Fascist Guards in Nazi Camp.
Comrade Clay, you've mounted a valiant defense but it seems clear to me that the weight of evidence is against you on this one.
You have a little bit of "wiggle room" left, but not much. You can say that Stalin didn't know this or that thing was going on...except some of it happened in Stalin's presence. You can say the newspapers were sensationalist...but journalistic sensationalism always takes place within political/cultural constraints. You can say the Red Army outran its supply lines...but south of Poland the same army was advancing 20 miles or more per day. And then there is the unmistakable admission by the party that people were abused and tortured because they were jews...just because they were then released is NOT "a happy-ever-after-ending".
I don't understand the reluctance of anyone aware of even the basic outlines of Russian history and culture not freely admitting that anti-semitism was WIDE-SPREAD and fairly intense. And while the CPSU/B under Stalin certainly did some things to oppose that, they hardly really scratched the surface...nor did they try all that hard, in my opinion. Stalin was certainly far from the worst anti-semite in the Soviet Union...but I can't see that he made any vigorous efforts to OPPOSE it either. Where is the speech or article by Stalin that opposes anti-semitism with the same vigor that he opposed Trotskyism? Indeed, where is the speech by Stalin where he opposes anti-semitism AT ALL??
I'd like to thank comrades redjordi, new democracy, and reuben for the evidence they presented; I learned a LOT.
Listen to the worm of doubt for it speaks truth.
The Redstar2000 Papers
Also see this NEW SITE:@nti-dialectics
and what about his alliance with hitler? that is not something that protect him in this case.
