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I just red a book about them, and it totaly fascinated me. I know they did many bad things, but fighting spirit of these men were enormus. Some units took over 80% of causaltys, most of them were fighting to the end. Whats your view? I know they probably are not very popular around here.
They were bloody murderers. They were the worst kind of humans that existed.
"but fighting spirit of these men were enormus"
It was just a blind fascination for hitler.
You can say the same thing about plane hijackers or serial killers, they are really determined too.
Fighting spirit is important but the most important is how you use this fighting spirit and we all know what these pigs have done.
About ss I'm wondering how can humans become like it.
Well the conventional view is that they were the best of the best, an elite fighting force etc, etc. But I have heard some say that this is largely myth, they say the vast majority were simply fanatics who lacked any military skill or tactics. Which should explain why they took 80% loses.
Also remember they got the best equipment, especially after Stalingrad. I think the best divisions (in terms of fighting quality NOT fanatism) were the following, although this is in no particular order.
SS Dah Reich, this one was orginally Hilter's bodyguard.
SS Wiking, mostly made up of Scandinavians.
SS Tokenform (spell). Now the guy that commanded these lot, one Theodor Eicke was a real Nazi fanatic. During training before the division went to Russia they took 10 dead, 16 wounded and 250 injured.
And if you wan't a division for pure evil and fanatism, do a websearch for SS Dirlwanger.
'What is 11 million dollars compared to the love of 11 million Cubans' Felix Savon
''That morning, my father took my hand and we went out. I saw how upset all the Algerians looked and how the French were rejoicing. I asked my father what had happened. He gravely replied: 'Stalin is dead...' I asked who Stalin was. My father said: 'He was the greatest man of our time. He was the leader of the Soviet Union, the greatest revolutionary country. Stalin was the son of a cobbler.' And I thought the son of a cobbler, someone like me...' Algerian Revolutionary in fight against French Imperialism.
The World Revolution is ongoing history. Even if you win the war, which I don’t think you will, the World Revolution will not and cannot be stooped by military means, Your very powerful army can do much harm to us, can kill many of our people - but it cannot kill ideas! Its movement might seem dormant to you at the moment, but it s there and will come to the fore again out of the awakening of the poor, the downtrodden orginary people the world over in Africa, the Americas, in Asia and Europe too. People in their masses will one day understand that it is the power of capital over them which not only oppresses and robs them, but stifles their human potential, which either uses or discards them as mere pawns to make monetary profit out of the,. Once the people grasp that idea, it will mature into an almost material force in popular uprisings like spreading wildfires and will do what has to be done in the name of humanity. It will not be Russia who will do it for them, although the Russian working people were the first who have borken the chains. The people of the will do it for themselves in their own countries, against their own oppressors, in their own ways and in their own time!’
A 'Stalinist Beuracrate' to his Fascist Guards in Nazi Camp.
First to you, Cassius Clay. The names of this devisions were: SS Division "Das Reich" and SS Division "Totenkopf", but all in all there were 38 SS Divisionen in the time of Hitler. Another thing was wrong is, that SS Division "Das Reich" should be Hitlers bodygards, it was the SS Divions "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler".
Now to the other lies you all wrote. My grand-pa was soldier in the SS Division "Das Reich". He was member of the third SS - Tank-Granadier Regiment "Deutschland". Now to you, Loic, when you say, that my grand-pa was a bloody murder, please come to me and look into my eyes while speaking. I think you are all not very good informated. Yes, some divisions made cruel things, for example this division that were in the KZ's. But there were also elite fighting forces, who fought like normal soldiers, only stronger. This divisions lost so many soldiers because Hitler used them at the most difficult places.
It's right, when you say, their believe to Hitler was very big, but this was because of all the propaganda Hitler made. In Germany neary all students followed Hilter and I'm sure you also won't resist against this propaganda. A lot of soldiers also didn't fought for Hitler, they fought for their homeland. I hate fashism and i hate Adolf Hitler, because they destroyed germany and killed so many people, but it's wrong to say, all german were bad people at this time or all people in the Waffen SS were bloody murders. One should realize all the things arround.
Nowhere did I call any of them 'Bloody murderer'. Sorry If I caused any offense though.
'What is 11 million dollars compared to the love of 11 million Cubans' Felix Savon
''That morning, my father took my hand and we went out. I saw how upset all the Algerians looked and how the French were rejoicing. I asked my father what had happened. He gravely replied: 'Stalin is dead...' I asked who Stalin was. My father said: 'He was the greatest man of our time. He was the leader of the Soviet Union, the greatest revolutionary country. Stalin was the son of a cobbler.' And I thought the son of a cobbler, someone like me...' Algerian Revolutionary in fight against French Imperialism.
The World Revolution is ongoing history. Even if you win the war, which I don’t think you will, the World Revolution will not and cannot be stooped by military means, Your very powerful army can do much harm to us, can kill many of our people - but it cannot kill ideas! Its movement might seem dormant to you at the moment, but it s there and will come to the fore again out of the awakening of the poor, the downtrodden orginary people the world over in Africa, the Americas, in Asia and Europe too. People in their masses will one day understand that it is the power of capital over them which not only oppresses and robs them, but stifles their human potential, which either uses or discards them as mere pawns to make monetary profit out of the,. Once the people grasp that idea, it will mature into an almost material force in popular uprisings like spreading wildfires and will do what has to be done in the name of humanity. It will not be Russia who will do it for them, although the Russian working people were the first who have borken the chains. The people of the will do it for themselves in their own countries, against their own oppressors, in their own ways and in their own time!’
A 'Stalinist Beuracrate' to his Fascist Guards in Nazi Camp.
Dam, sorry my mistake.
'What is 11 million dollars compared to the love of 11 million Cubans' Felix Savon
''That morning, my father took my hand and we went out. I saw how upset all the Algerians looked and how the French were rejoicing. I asked my father what had happened. He gravely replied: 'Stalin is dead...' I asked who Stalin was. My father said: 'He was the greatest man of our time. He was the leader of the Soviet Union, the greatest revolutionary country. Stalin was the son of a cobbler.' And I thought the son of a cobbler, someone like me...' Algerian Revolutionary in fight against French Imperialism.
The World Revolution is ongoing history. Even if you win the war, which I don’t think you will, the World Revolution will not and cannot be stooped by military means, Your very powerful army can do much harm to us, can kill many of our people - but it cannot kill ideas! Its movement might seem dormant to you at the moment, but it s there and will come to the fore again out of the awakening of the poor, the downtrodden orginary people the world over in Africa, the Americas, in Asia and Europe too. People in their masses will one day understand that it is the power of capital over them which not only oppresses and robs them, but stifles their human potential, which either uses or discards them as mere pawns to make monetary profit out of the,. Once the people grasp that idea, it will mature into an almost material force in popular uprisings like spreading wildfires and will do what has to be done in the name of humanity. It will not be Russia who will do it for them, although the Russian working people were the first who have borken the chains. The people of the will do it for themselves in their own countries, against their own oppressors, in their own ways and in their own time!’
A 'Stalinist Beuracrate' to his Fascist Guards in Nazi Camp.
"It's right, when you say, their believe to Hitler was very big, but this was because of all the propaganda Hitler made"
I agree but you are responsible of your acts even if you live in a country which is full of propaganda. All germans where not nazis, even if it was dangerous to disagree with hitler.
"But there were also elite fighting forces, who fought like normal soldiers, only stronger"
They fought for hitler and for nazism. They fought for a system where every people who were different from what hitler wanted go in concentration camp, or labor camp.
Do you really think they were normal soldiers?
I don't think so.
You say"only stronger", personnally I think that ss were only murderers.
Your grandfather was a ss, this is not an excuse to try to find them excuses.
Honor is stupid. Taking 80% casualties doesn't show how determined you are. Assuming you are not defending your last stand, then you should regroup. You shouldn't waste troops.
<span style=\'font-family:Arial\'>11:18 am, Greenwich Mean Time, December 21, 2012 AD.
"If you're talking about Xvall, I think it is some date when the world is supposed to get sucked into some blackhole or some crazy shit like that." - Fist of Blood
"Einstein was a sick pervert, E=mC2 MY ARSE! pROVE IT U RED SWINE" - Bugalu Shrimp</span>
after reading the country you're from, loic, i know why you say the ss were only murders, but you should not forget the history while being against germany.
you know why it was so easy for hitler and his propaganda? because of the treaty of versailles. the people in germany had no hope for better times in the years around 1933. the economy was down and there were a lot of workless people. one main reason for this were the reparations germany had to pay and mainly france wanted, that we pay more. later france attacked the big industry area in the west of germany (ruhrgebiet or ruhrarea). but the most terrible thing was, that we, the whole german nation had to sign, that we are the only guilty nation for all the first world war (article 231 in the treaty of versailles). the third point is, that we lost elsass - lothringen and a lot of other important areas.
"They fought for a system where every people who were different from what hitler wanted go in concentration camp, or labor camp."
my grand-pa was 16 when he got member of the waffen ss. since he was 6 the nazis governed germany. do you know how easy one can influence a boy in this age. the people in the waffen ss were very young ones, the most not older than 25, when he came home from war, he decided that he will no more use any weapons. you are right, there were murders in the waffen ss and they did very cruel things, but it was a small part and not all the waffen ss. i know also other man who fought at the side of my grand-pa. they are all normal man and not "bloody-murders". a second important point is, that the people didn't know, that there were concentration camps. there were rumours, but nothing more. with the time, i think the most people can't resist against a strong propaganda (also in france), they believed blind to the things hitler said and you could be sure, the most did not fought for the system, they fought for a better and a stronger germany, with more work and better chances for their families.
"after reading the country you're from, loic, i know why you say the ss were only murders"
my ideas concerning ss have nothing to do with my nationality. I'm french and in france at this time there were a lot of bastards who collaborated with nazis, who denounced jews who tried to escape from nazis...
I'm not blaming ss because they were germans but because they were nazis, and I'm also blaming french who helped nazis.
Concerning what you say about how germany was humiliated by reparations, ... I agree with you. After the first WW, germany was considered like the guilty party and so there was a feeling of revenge in germany that I can understand.
"a second important point is, that the people didn't know, that there were concentration camps"
This is not right. People knew but they just pretend that they didn't know.
For example people who lived near concentration camps, they saw every day trains full of people come in the camp and they had never seen one of these man go back. How can they say that they didn't know?
In my opinion when these people are saying that they didn't know, they should say that they didn't give a fuck!
Same thing in france with, from example, the "vel d'hiv"police raid: people have been piled up in a stadium before beeing deported and all the peole of this city knew, they saw the police raid and the way people were piled up.
So I don't believe people who say that they didn't know.
Maybe they loved nazi's ideology, maybe they was afraid. But they knew.
They fought for a system where every people who were different from what hitler wanted go in concentration camp, or labor camp.
sound like the red army ?, (substitut 'hitler' for 'stalin'), and add 'gulag' next to concentration camp.
It's true that the Waffen SS wasn't constantly involved in atrocities. They were often used as combat units. But don't tell me that after the invasion of Poland and Russia they didn't go rounding up "inferiors" and filling mass graves with their bodies. Members of the SS were the ones manning the concentration camps and fleeing while the Whermacht protected their retreat. The SS was and is considered today to be a criminal organization and rightfully so.
I do agree that the Waffen SS (unlike your average SS)wasn't necessarily responsible for all the bad things that happened during the war, but that doesn't give them some excuse.
\"Ultimately, all true revolutionaries are motivated by love.\"--Che
Please sovietsky, as usual, Stalin has to be attacked. So let me get this straight, Stalin rounded up jews, slavs, and communists and put them in gulags?
I do love the stalinists (mazdak), and although some of the things they say are quite true (removing inefficencies etc), i do wish they would realise that stalin was nothing more than a dictator, the soviet union, after world war two, devolved into state capitalism SO THERE !
anyway, you know what i mean about the gulags, hell, even marshall zhukov got a spell in siberia, all because he was apparently a traitor (he freed stalingrad, joe wanted to be seem as its saviour).
As far as Infantry goes, they were damn tight. Discplined, fearless and tough customers. But then, so were the Gurkhas...
The prolonged barrage engulfed Zero-One in the glow of a thousand suns. But unlike their former masters with their delicate flesh, the machines had little to fear of the bombs' radiation and heat. Thus did Zero-One's troops advance outwards in every direction. And one after another, mankind surrendered its territories. So the leaders of men conceived of their most desperate strategy yet. A final solution: the destruction of the sky.
-- The 2nd Renaissance (Part2), Animatrix
state capitalism begun after stalin died and Kruschev "the revisionist" came to power...
even though Zhukov was a good strategist, he was ruthless to his men, i have heard of multiple complaints of red army soldiers that Zhukov "hit" soldiers and that his orders were too inhumane.. stalin knew this and warned him multiple times about this, that was the real reason...
\"Once more I could convince myself how terrible the capitalist octopuses are.
I swore on a picture of our old and bewailed comrade Stalin,
I swore not to rest before these capitalist octopuses are destroyed.\" Che Guevara
The only reason why this man where fighting so hard. Is that hitler thaugt them boljiwiks are the naturale aryan enemies. And were viewing propaganda movies about calm nazis who only wanted to improve the world but theb the big bad communist came and beated them. first nazi-germany did it then America. And many ppl still dont trust russians cause of movies like rambo andso.
Conclusion:
-the human mind is easy to sabotage(i dont know the correct english word) If you are just showing enough movies and images why the enemie is that bad, they eventualy will believe it.
Let no one charge that socialists have arrayed class against class in this struggle. That has been done long since in the evolution of capitalist society. One class is small and rich and the other large and poor....One consists of capitalists and the other of workers. These two classes are at war. Every day of peace is at the expense of labor. There can be no peace and good will between these two essentially antagonistic economic classes. - Debs
They were fanatics and they also knew what would have happened to them (and rightly so!) if they surrendered, especially on the Eastern Front.
Historically, one has to differentiate between the "first batch" waffen units (Das Reich, Liebstandarte, Totenkopf, Wiking, Gross Deutschland) and the multitude of units formed in a hurry during WW2. Espcially from the officers' proficiency point of view, the first ones were far superior.
In any case, taking into account that they received the latest equipment first, I don't think there is any evidence than even the best waffen-ss units performed any better than the upper-tier Wermacht units.
What instead is a sure thing is the SS involvement in almost but every massacre and atrocity committed both on the Eastern and Western fronts.
--- Happiness is the maximum agreement of aspirations and reality ---
The filthy SS would have had to be pretty thick not to notice that whole ethnic populations were being relocated on massive scales. I u trying to tell me, hammi, that the SS didnt even know that the warsaw ghetto or the lodge ghetto or the millions of other ghettoes in which jews were being starved to deaht, existed.. Out of 3.3 million jews in Poland 3 million were unaaccounted for. How could that simply happen under the noses of the elite units f the occupying force.
Finally whether they carried out the atrocities or not, as the elite ighters they were facilitAting the atrocities. They fought to advance a military body which was carrying possibly the wrst ever Genocide against Jews and Gypsies.
I do not blame all germans. Some members f the SS were from other countries suchas the Ukraine and Belgium. However SS members must take some responisbility
You should tell the Soviets that. They were dragging "Workers" out of factories, handing them rifles, letting them fire off a clip, and sending them to the front at one point.
They treated their Proletariate like fodder whose lives were worth less than their ability to soak up German bullets.
If we cannot have peace, let us create for ourselves a solitude and call it peace.
