Republicans and Democrats

[Red Menace]

Know, I know that we hate both Republicans and Democrats. but im just a little confused on the subject. Aren't democrats *liberals* kinda the lesser of two evils. Can we sympathize with them? or is that out of the question??

[Lenin's Law]

Yes, liberals are better than fascists but it still promotes a system of exploitation and profit over the needs of the people (capitalism)

It's like saying in 1840: "Isn't there a difference between being a slave in Maryland versus being one in Missisissippi?" Everyone knew there was a difference BUT it was slavery and still needed to be opposed.

[Ol' Dirty]

Liberals are leftists, but are more contemporary, and still support capitalism, so we are generaly oppose them. Don't get me wrong, though; we do come together on many ethical topics, such as womens, lesbigay and trans, ethnic, and cultural rights, but tend to disagree when it comes to more economic things, like capital. You might see a bunch Liberals and socialists on the same side of the picket line when it comes to the Second Iraq War, but a great divide when it comes to the rights of ownership and social reform.

As for conservatives, we almost always disagree with them. They are usualy okay (or better) people, but we just don't get along.

[Comrade Kurtz]

It's important to not confuse the term 'neo-liberal' (free trade/free market supporters) and 'liberal'. Although I would hardly consider myself a liberal, it's not an exclusive term for leftists who support capitalism.

[Janus]

Radical leftists and democrats generally don't have a lot in common. And I think it would even be a stretch to consider the Democrat Party the lesser of evils. They're certainly better than Republicans but it would still be difficult to really work with them on most issues.

[OneBrickOneVoice]

On another capitalist board I post on usually I have a little in common with the most 'radical' liberal democrats on the board.

[Ander]

I find it hilarious how the right in the US paints the Democrats and liberals as leftist radicals. Just wait til they see the real radicals

[Janus]

I find it hilarious how the right in the US paints the Democrats and liberals as leftist radicals

That was more or less mainly in the past where they tried to paint any liberal type as a hardcore commie. Conservatives have so far pretty much dropped that strategy by now.

[which doctor]

America is a one party state, with two different, but similar, tendencies. They both serve the interests of the ruling class.

The democratic party can't be sympathized with!

[RebelDog]

America is a one party state, with two different, but similar, tendencies. They both serve the interests of the ruling class.

That is basically the case as Chomsky likes always to point out. The ruling class under this status-quo is never challenged and politics are conducted and elections contested in a narrow part of the political spectrum. This has been a major success story for the establishment here in Britain too. We now have pointless elections between New Labour and the Conservatives which is farcical in the utmost and less and less people are taking part due to this rotten excuse for democracy. All the republicans/democrats newlabour/conservative parties are doing at elections is trying to get the job of running the economy for the rich. They are just managers for the rich.

Ask yourself this; We have seen years and years of republican/democrat governments. Has anything changed? If the answer is no, then the system must go!

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Most Democrats are actually pretty conservative. The fact that Republicans use words like "left-wing" and "liberal" to describe people like John Kerry just shows how right-wing they all are.

[angus_mor]

"You wanna know the difference between the two? A Democrat blows, and a Republican sucks." -- Lewis Black

Democrats have made half-hearted attempts at social reform before, but that doesn't mean they should be encouraged. We shouldn't even approach Social Democrats without atleast some degree of skepticism, simply because of the corruption factor of participating in bourgeois democracy, let alone their stubborn commitment to it as a vehicle for socialism, even concluding it to be the one true path! I too hoped that the Democrats would be liberal enough in a literal sense of the word to distinguish and even distance themselves from the Republicans, but alas they were doctrinaire capitalists, and thus could take no direction, they could only stand in dumbfounded silence with no solutions, afraid to speak out for fear that people would figure this out. The dialectic displaced by the internal revolutions of the American Political System is coming to an obvious setting for Republican domination of the power struggle. The Democrats have watched it materialize and did nothing to stop it, it's a logical development in capitalism's maturation, and soon the Democratic Party will decline further and assimilate into the Republican Party; the Republicans have gained complete control of the Political battleground.

[Raj Radical]

But the situation is so dire that we need to get off our asses and do something, the only reasonable solution is progressive voting. It's the lesser of two evils, but its better than wollowing in our own detached idealism.

I swear some of you would rather see the extreme right wing of america destroy the earth before you would be branded as a "pussy liberal" for voting. (as bourgeois as the electoral system is, granted).

Humble yourselves ideologically and take some form of action, discussing the problem is getting us no where.

[Ell Carino]

Elections are fixed now anyways... don't matter who you "vote" for...

[Severian]

Sometimes the Democrats are actually the greater evil. For example, a lot of them have been attacking Bush for not being even more aggressive against Iran.

All those millions of working people who sometimes vote Republican, do you think they think the Republicans are great? Nah, they've just decided the Republicans are a lesser evil. For whatever reason.

A lot of people go back and forth on which party might screw us a little less.

But meanwhile, we keep getting screwed. All the arguments for keeping on with the "lesser evil" approach have been the same for decades, and have never accomplished anything.

In contrast, when working people act independently of the bosses' parties, through mass action, in the streets - we've accomplished some things. Built industrial unions, smashed official racist segregation, forced the U.S. to get out of Vietnam, etc., etc.

It's never mattered so much who's in office, compared to how much pressure they're under.

Supporting the "lesser evil" cuts across this. It tells people to trust in some politician to make things better, rather than acting ourselves.

And then somebody will always be along to tell you to cool it with the independent struggles, especially in an election year, you'll hurt the Democrats' change of getting elected.....

[cb9's_unity]

i agree with raj radical sometimes we'll need to vote to make a difference. right now theres a goveners race going on in my state. theres a republican who's done nothing in her last term and theres a democrat who actually who's palnning on things like giving money to the schools and spending money on renuable fuels. if i was old enogh i would vote for him. there are times were we have to swallow some of our pride and do what we think is best for our society.
don't get me wrong though i'll only work with borgeous democracy if a difference really needs to be made. and when the time comes fuck democrats and republicans cause i'm still gonna work to denounce both of there bullshit ideoligies.

[angus_mor]

"Who ever you vote for, Government wins." -- Crass

I hate to say it, but it's true; how many reformist social democratic parties need to capitulate before we learn this? World War I could've easily been avoided if the SPD hadn't voted for the war credits on August 4th, 1914! How could they do that? Why would ANY socialist party vote for WAR?! Do any of you out there know that in 2004, 80% of the votes cast in the US Presidential election were counted by two corporations owned by one man?!! Would you trust a corporation whose financial destiny could be determined by the outcome of said election with YOUR vote? The government is only a stage for the aristocratic capitalist party, whatever name, republican, democratic, independent, PoliticsINC. always wins. Even if the elections are fair and held completely by the state apparatus, and even if your candidates won, would they holdfast against neoliberalism when they are flooded by Wall Street's vast team of lobbyists' bolstering and bribing them to vote how they want? Is it really democracy? Or is it just another dictatorship of the bourgeoisie?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._election_voting_controversies ://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U..._controversies

[Lenin's Law]

Originally posted by Raj Radical@Sep 28 2006, 06:18 AM
But the situation is so dire that we need to get off our asses and do something, the only reasonable solution is progressive voting. It's the lesser of two evils, but its better than wollowing in our own detached idealism.

I swear some of you would rather see the extreme right wing of america destroy the earth before you would be branded as a "pussy liberal" for voting. (as bourgeois as the electoral system is, granted).

But voting for the Democratic Party is hardly "progressive voting". As Severian's excellent post clearly shows, the Democrats have adopted several measures which are even more to the right than the Republicans are! Examples: Hillary Clinton has called for a stronger line against Iran, Hezbollah and an even stronger defense of Israel. Her husband Bill said that the Democrats would be stronger on the "war on terror" than the Republicans would be. John Kerry has said he would put more troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. Both have called for the resignation/firing of Donald Rumsfeld. Why? Because they want someone "to do the job better" ie not so that the fundamental policies of Rumsfeld are changed only the strategy, tactics, diplomatic manuevers, etc are changed to make it easier for US imperialism to do its dirty work.

I know many people here that "are getting off our asses and doing something" I find it demeaning that you could come here as a member of a revolutionary left website and make such sweeping generalizations about people who are involved, organized and working hard every day to make changes; not just pushing a button for a capitalist, imperialist political party which you believe represents something "progressive"

IMO, the Democrats have used the "far right wing Republican Boogeyman" since the days of Barry Goldwater. They used it again for Ronald Reagan.

To which I ask: Where has it gotten us?? Have the Democrats become more progressive, more left wing?? NO! They have gone even further to the right to the point at which they are arguing against reactionary Republican foreign policy from an even further right wing position!

Humble yourselves ideologically and take some form of action, discussing the problem is getting us no where.

Of course both action and discussion are vitally necessary. Action without discussion and debate of what needs to be done will get us absolutely nowhere and all talk and no action will not change anything.

You can't be so dogmatic that you say "No discussion, only action!" or "All discussion, no action!" We need some of both.

And finally, the "Left" in the US (or what accounts for it) have by and large supported the Democrats for the last 50 years. How any revolutionary leftist can now come to the conclusion that we need, yet again, to support a party that has become such a miserable failure for the advancement of working people and has become such an obvious Trojan Horse for "progressive" people in thinking a party bought and sold by Big Business can be anything but predatory capitalism is the real disgrace here.

The sooner us revolutionary leftists convince the working class of the bankruptcy of the Democratic Party (a conclusion I believe many working people are quickly adopting) the sooner we will be in a position to make real, lasting change.

The Democrats are nothing but a ruse to fool progressives into believing they can be something that they can never, ever be.