and another brilliant NEUTRAL site (ie not armenian or azeri)
http://window.to/Azerbaijan
Results 21 to 40 of 61
Also check this out: Can you read these sites, and stop going to that zeri bullshit site?
http://www.geocities.com/master8885/DPolic...akusumgait.html
and also
http://www.geocities.com/master8885/DPolicy/smash.html
maybe with this we can conclude this thread?
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and another brilliant NEUTRAL site (ie not armenian or azeri)
http://window.to/Azerbaijan
<span style=\'color:red\'>www.marxist.com Committee for a Marxist International</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>Proleteriat of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>HandsOffVenezuela in solidarity with the Venezuelan workers and the Venezuelan Revolution</span>
Answer to your "firstly" : all the people who were in Politburo were the members of the Central Committee at the same time. You can't say about dominance of Russian, as you know that each Republic had it's own Tseka ( Central Committee)
Number 1. If you call massacres of the innocents a war, then you can say that the war started in 1988. I have caught you in contadicting to yourself; you said that the war had started in 1987 in your previous reply.
The situation was the following: Armenians killed Azeris, Azeris killed Armenians. what was the reason for that? (simple question) Do you have an answer Kamo?
Again. Azeris didn't started the mass killings, as it is really hard to prove , who really started it, I wouldn't say that Armenians were the first initiators. BUT, the whole conflict was of a national character.
Number 2. Have you witnessed all these? Was you among so called by you "guerillas" , who were full of revenge feelings?
The time of the common law has passed away. Hey, if they killed your family , then they have to go to jail or be submitted to the capital punishment. No one has the right to answer with violence. This is according to the law. So, if the situation was really like this, then those men were ordinary killers.
But it was not like this. Armenians and Azeris hated each other, because they were brainwashed, they were prepared for the war over territory. And your revenge stories are just good fairy tails for little kids- future idiots.
number 3. my previous words have already answered on it.
number 4 "as soon as the ussr fell the capitalist took over everywhere, even your sweet oil in Baku."
And the war was continued by those capitalists. Therefore, it must be obvious that it had been started by them. Don't you understand the simple things?
Do you know how many armenians live in Baku on the present moment? Oh, boy you are just far away from reality. Since the recent time, I have moved back to Baku and I know what I talk about. There are approximately 10 000 armenians living only in Baku, they are registered and everybody know who they are. The situation can be described as the complete tolerance of Azeris.
By the way. One man from the university I study at right now, was half Azeri, half Armenian. We all knew about it and didn't even try to attack him, in contrary he was treated with respect. He went to visit his mother , who lived in Erevan ( she was Armenian) for the summer vacations. And he didn't come back. His father informed our university that his son had been killed by the Armenians. Do you know why they killed him? Only because he was half Azeri. This is true fact.
Do you support this shit, Kamo? One nation hates another nation , and after that you say that the war in Nagorny - Karabakh wasn't started by nationalists. You are fucking mistaken.
I see that you use the most unintelligent mehtods of personal attacks. Just count how many times you called me this and that, the number you will get shows how stupid you are. ( 10 grade system, but I am sure that you are the exclusion from the common rules)
"lets kill all the armenians for no good reason."
Have you heard me saying it?
"fuckin idiots like you will say"
Answer for your words. Have you heard that I said this?...... Then , don't say shit like this.
I don't agree with the quote from the site, you have mentioned. The point of that site was to show the genocide, which took place in Khojaly, but the authors made serious mistake putting that kind of statements.
Ah, so your azeri, this would explain a lot
firstly i like to see its nice to c a comrade from the caucauses, and that we shouldnt be against each other if we are both for an international overthrow of capitalism. I have nothing against you, and wont have unless you state derogatory statement on armenians
Back to the debate.....
There are NO armenians in azerbaijan, in the own where we live in Armenia there is a refugee camp for where all the armenians from azerbaijan, one of them builds furniture lol.
"I don't agree with the quote from the site, you have mentioned."
i didnt make up the statement, it was made by the leader of Azerbaijan, i would honestly say it was a parrallel to a hiterite saying.
i still dont get your capitalist takevoer theory, pelase explain.
Also, i think a certain amount a hatred comes from the fact that the azeri's couldnt start a communist revolution in 1921, and the armenians went and did it (see: Stepan Shahumian who the British executed).
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<span style=\'color:red\'>Proleteriat of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!</span>
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quote: " Ah, so your azeri, this would explain a lot
firstly i like to see its nice to c a comrade from the caucauses, and that we shouldnt be against each other if we are both for an international overthrow of capitalism. I have nothing against you, and wont have unless you state derogatory statement on armenians "
I am Azeri on 1/3.
You said very true and very important words.We communists are internationalists and nationality doesn't matter.Only if everyone will keep this in mind our mission will be successful.
"There are NO armenians in azerbaijan, in the own where we live in Armenia there is a refugee camp for where all the armenians from azerbaijan, one of them builds furniture lol. "
So,do you live in Aremnia for the present moment?
I know about refugee camps, we have a lot of them over here too.But the fact that armenians do live in Azerbaijan can't be negated. I don't say that they are 100% armenian ( but maybe there are some),they are mainly mixed with azeri blood or others.
By the way,I have heard the true story about Aremnian, who was killed in Armenia by his compatriots, only for saying that he had lived well in Baku during the Soviet time. Fucking nationalists! They form the main problem and slow the process of coming to the friendly agreement on the Karabakh problem.
"i still dont get your capitalist takevoer theory, pelase explain. "
Allright.Don't you know that the present president of Armenia Kocharyan was one of those who leaded the separation movement in Nagorny- Karabakh? At the same time he remained the citizen of USSR. The military actions, which he was the leader ( one of the leaders) of were completely unconstitutional and went against the main Law of the Soviet State. Kocharyan is the best example of the renegade and anti-communist. And this man was one of the main initiators of the whole war-massacre. He is a president. He got what he wanted:"free", "independent",nationalistic Armenia and Karabakh territory, as the one which DE FACTO belongs to Armenia. Kocharyan won together with other nationalists.Moreover the propaganda of nationalism was started by armenians long ago. Kamo, if you live in Armenia you have to know this better than me. Ask anybody at your place: what do you think about azeris? What do you think people will answer? Definitely, not pleasant words.
Anyway, Kocharyan won and the communists lost.( the same as anti-communist --------capitalist won)
quote: " i think a certain amount a hatred comes from the fact that the azeri's couldnt start a communist revolution in 1921, and the armenians went and did it (see: Stepan Shahumian who the British executed). "
I see your misunderstanding of the historical moment.
Baku was the center of the revolutionary movement in Caucauses. Revolutionists and workers of different nations fought for the common goal. The workers have no nationalities, but they have the chains. That is why they can be united.
The liberation of Caucases started with the struggle in Azerbaijan, particularly Baku. Many revolutionists fought there, among them : Azeris ( no one has the right to negate this), Armenians, Georgians, Russians and many others.
Kamo, I know whom Kamo was, he was a great revolunist and fighter for the interests of proletariat. Moreover I know whom Stepan Shaumyan was. Wasn't he one of the 26 Baku's comissars? By the way, there is a version that Mikoyan betrayed Baku's commissars , as he was the only man( but he wasn't commissar) whom English soldiers didn't kill.
Coming back to Shaumyan. Do you think he would have supported Nagorny -Karabakh conflict? I don't think so. Do you know that during the revolutionary actions in Caucauses Armenians killed other Armenians? Communists killed Capitalists, Internationalists killed nationalists. Armenian communists killed Armenian dashnaks, because they provoked all of the massacres of that time, spreading nationalist feelings among WORKERS, slowing the revolutionary movement.
Have you came to the reason Kamo? The true communist would never support any wars, which have nationalistic, anti-communist basis.
(Edited by Revolution Hero at 7:57 pm on Oct. 22, 2002)
full of shit.
the USSR wasnt communist by the end of the 80's
Lenin would have supported and any communist would have supporteed the plight of the Karabaghis in the right to self determination, as stated by lenin himself, they should have had independance from azerbaijan.
The feelin of "anti-communism" as you put it isnt for anti-ideolgy, but it would have been any anti-ideology who didnt stop the massacres of the armenians in karabagh. If the capitalists were not to give a shit about the massacres, then the armenians would be anti-capitalist in movement, however the "communists" didnt do anything about the massacres, so there were anti-communist protests.
I think you have to be very naive to think that USSR was perfect socialist anyway, and that there were many many problems in the USSR at that time which any true socialist should have protested against.
Kocharian was the leader of the kharabaghi guerillas at the time of the war, and hence knew all about the atrocities of the time, however, as leader of Armenia, he does not carry on a "ideological" policy, but more of whatever is best in armenian interests, if nationalising everything in armenia is best thing to do then he would do it, however, it is not.
"The military actions, which he was the leader ( one of the leaders) of were completely unconstitutional and went against the main Law of the Soviet State"
and i suppose the massacres of thousands of armenians is constitutional is it?
Kocharian serves the interests of the people of armenia, that is more socialist than the bastards who didnt give a fuck about the people but served the politburo.
USSR was a nightmare, wake up from it RH.
If Azerbaijan was the centre of the caucasian proleteriat revolution, then why were there georgians and armenians there? Because the azeris couldnt revolt on themselves and needed help, unlike the georgians and armenians.
Semeno
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" the USSR wasnt communist by the end of the 80's "
True. And those bastards just used the situation to start the NK conflict in order to make the final punch to knock USSR down. This conflict worsened the whole internal situation of the Soviet state.
USSR was socialist before and the socialist past could have been restored. But, unfortunately the enemies of the Soviet state did a good job. Those guerillas- bandits are just one of those renegades , who betrayed the founding fathers of the USSR.
About Lenin's words.
The right of self - determination belonged to any nation. One nation can become independent only in it's territorial boundries. For example: if Armenia wanted to become independent then no one would have said it a word during the time when Lenin declared that principle.
But armenians who lived inside the territory of Azerbaijan republic ( NK) had not the right to declare their separate " independent " state, as this territory belonged to Azerbaijan, and served as an autonomous republic, just like the Nakhichevan. The war started by the nationalistic bandits contradicted and violated the Constitution of Azerbaijan Soviet Socialistic Republic and the Constitution of the USSR.
" the capitalists were not to give a shit about the massacres, then the armenians would be anti-capitalist in movement, however the "communists" didnt do anything about the massacres, so there were anti-communist protests"
The capitalists ( anti-sovietists) supported the conflict. Actually, the whole war started as the result of Gorbachev's reforms and the raise of a nationalistic spirit. This situation created a good environment for the capitalists to start the plan of the final destruction of the Soviet Union. They started to provoke nationalistic massacres, making a bloody foundation for the start of the war. Can't you still get it? The war wasn't fought by the communists! If you support it, then....... you can't call yourself communist
quote: "I think you have to be very naive to think that USSR was perfect socialist anyway, and that there were many many problems in the USSR at that time which any true socialist should have protested against"
I haven't said that USSR was perfect, especially during the end of the 80s. Gorbachev and other agents of the capitalistic ( US) influence did everything possible in order to destroy the state from the inside.USSR was a good socialist state before 80s. It was the strongest state in the world. And it presents a great legacy to all true communists.
quote:" and i suppose the massacres of thousands of armenians is constitutional is it? "
No. I answer NO , because I am not nationalist. I thought you have got it already.
quote:"he does not carry on a "ideological" policy, but more of whatever is best in armenian interests, if nationalising everything in armenia is best thing to do then he would do it, however, it is not. "
His ideology is capitalism , which is based on nationalism. ( for your info). It is clear, man. Just think and analyze, you will get to the right conclusion then.
quote:"Kocharian serves the interests of the people of armenia, "
LOL. And George Bush serves the intersets of his mighty nation. That is you who have to wake up. Anti -communist MF serves the interests of the bourgeois class. You can't call him socialist. Politburo comardes were the true communists. ( I mean those , who were the members of politburo before 80s). You have no right to compare kocharyan with the faithful communists.
quote:"If Azerbaijan was the centre of the caucasian proleteriat revolution, then why were there georgians and armenians there?"
Sorry,man, but it is the most ignorant question I was asked . Why were their Georgian and Armenians? Because it was the center of the Caucaus's socialist revolutionary movement. Baku was the city of factories= city of proletariat and workers of all nationalities. Gerogians and Armenians helped because they were true internationalist .
fux sake,
dont call the guerillas "bastards" they are my comrades and should be for all those who support people who fight for justice, or indeeed against injustices.
the guerillas didnt give a shit what happeed to the USSR, there aim was to secure the lives of armenians, not to bring down the USSR, wake up stop dreaming.
Dont fuckin fuck the politburo members up the arse, they werent communist, just opportunist ****s, like shevernadze, and alyev.
If Alyev was a communist why did he call for the death of armenians and still does? Thankfully the old cunnt will die and i can celebrate with a drink of armenian cognac.
The rebels had nothing to with capitalism, and nationalism stems from capitalism, not the other way round like you said.
You seem to have a very select memory, try going on the internt and finding stuff on the karabagh war, then you will see truth.
I think id know a bit more about Kocharian than you would ok? and at the moment he isnt serving the bourgeosis primaraly ok?
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What a pile of reactionary drivel. Communists do not support ethnic cleansing. Retaliation or not. Yeah eat cake ya stupid bastards.
Man's dearest possession is life, and since it is given to him to live but once.He must so live that dying he can say, all my life and all my strength have been given to the greatest cause in the world, the liberation of mankind
Ostrovski
Muriel Spark:
If I had my life to live over again I should form the habit of nightly composing myself to thoughts of death. I would practice, as it were, the remembrance of death. There is no other practice which so intensifies life. Death, when it approaches, ought not to take one by surprise. It should be part of the full expectancy of life. Without an ever-present sense of death life is insipid. You might as well live on the whites of eggs.
quote:" dont call the guerillas "bastards" they are my comrades and should be for all those who support people who fight for justice, or indeeed against injustices"
Sorry, man. You can call them your friends ( if you really support them), but you have no right to call them comrades, as these people are not even leftists.
Allright, let's suppose that they fight for justice. Then, fighting for justice they created MF injustice, as they killed innocents. ( Khojaly)
quote:"the guerillas didnt give a shit what happeed to the USSR, there aim was to secure the lives of armenians"
This proves the nationalist character of their "just struggle". "They didn't even give a shit what happened in the USSR" - proves that they didn't care about socialism, hence they were not communists.
quote:"Dont fuckin fuck the politburo members up the arse, they werent communist, just opportunist ****s, like shevernadze, and alyev"
If you had been more attentive, then you would have noticed that I had not called these men comrades, but the fact that they were in politburo and one of them was even nominated to the post of gensec was apparent.
quote:"If Alyev was a communist why did he call for the death of armenians and still does? "
Aliyev is for the peaceful setllement of NK conflict. You don't know the topic, man.
quote:"The rebels had nothing to with capitalism, and nationalism "
Don't try to present it in this way. The problems, like the one in NK , never happened in the USSR before Gorbachev's reforms. Armenian separationists ( nationalists) used their "lucky" moment and started their injust millitary actions.
quote:", try going on the internt and finding stuff on the karabagh war, then you will see truth. "
The truth, which you mean is nothing but subjective lie of dashnaks.
quote:"id know a bit more about Kocharian than you would ok? and at the moment he isnt serving the bourgeosis primaraly ok"
LOL.
Really? are you his friend?
Actually, he is just fucking bourgeois class supporter, traitor, renegade and fucking piece of shit, who can't be called a humanbeing.
EN VINO VERETAS. ( I am drunk, but still rational, hell yeah!)
lenin:"Socialists have always condemned wars between nations as barbarous and brutal"
Enough said.
Man's dearest possession is life, and since it is given to him to live but once.He must so live that dying he can say, all my life and all my strength have been given to the greatest cause in the world, the liberation of mankind
Ostrovski
Muriel Spark:
If I had my life to live over again I should form the habit of nightly composing myself to thoughts of death. I would practice, as it were, the remembrance of death. There is no other practice which so intensifies life. Death, when it approaches, ought not to take one by surprise. It should be part of the full expectancy of life. Without an ever-present sense of death life is insipid. You might as well live on the whites of eggs.
That's right, peacenicked. And I don't support this shit. ( if you had been reading my replies, you would have figured it out.)
A tiny bit one sided. No?
Man's dearest possession is life, and since it is given to him to live but once.He must so live that dying he can say, all my life and all my strength have been given to the greatest cause in the world, the liberation of mankind
Ostrovski
Muriel Spark:
If I had my life to live over again I should form the habit of nightly composing myself to thoughts of death. I would practice, as it were, the remembrance of death. There is no other practice which so intensifies life. Death, when it approaches, ought not to take one by surprise. It should be part of the full expectancy of life. Without an ever-present sense of death life is insipid. You might as well live on the whites of eggs.
well, at least we have another member here on the thread, welcome peacenicked
who sed this was ethnic cleansing, the death of civilians was minimal, the guerillas were against the soldiers not innocents.
RH if u knew fuckin jack shit u'd realise guerillas always are on the move and wudnt waste fuckin time shooting civilians unless they represented a threat, which i dont know/care if the ppl in khojaly did or not.
the fact of the matter is, any one who is shaken with anger at an injustice is a comrade of mine - che guevara
i think its fair to say that when the official azeri army started killing kharabaghi armenians and tortured and raped them, then whoever fought back is a comrade
also, of course the website is one sided, its from the fuckin azeri govt
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so now you don't care about people only because of their nationality?
But still it tells the truth. The point of this thread was to let all comrades know about Khojaly tragedy and the brutality of war over territory, the war which had nationalist character. The information , which was posted starting this thread is really present only one side, only one part of NK conflict. But it doesn't matter that this part must be forgotten .
Khojaly tragedy- that's it. I didn't want to go any further. Comrade Kamo actually did go deep in the "origin" of the whole NK war, protecting armenians and justifying their position.
I agree with you, peacceniked, communist ideology have never supported any war conflicts between two reactionary groups, which fight for their interests, which don't coincide with the interests of the working people, with the interests of the proletariat. The NK war was a reactionary war, which aroused in the socialist state ( unfortunately the USSR was the socialist state only De Jure at that particular historical moment). This war was completely anti-sovietist ( just like everything what happened at that time), hence anti-communist.
We communists should not support any wars of that kind. Peaccenicked , you was the first who said it after me ( read my past replies), you have proved one more time that you are true communist, true comrade.
what the fuck?
Simple as fuck
Azeri Soldiers and Civilians massacre armenians in the whole of Kharabagh, read previous posts where the president of azerbaijan stated "if there is one even one armenian left in azerbaijan he shall be hanged in the central square".
Following the planned annihalation and pogroms of the azeris, Armenian Guerillas fought to protect the armenian civilians in Kharabagh, they took on and smashed the azeri army, like Che smashed the Batista regime, only the ARmenians didnt want to take azerbaijan over, but protect the armenians living there.
This is not a class issue, it is ethnic cleansing, azeris didnt want armenians in azerbaijan, like hitler didnt want the jews, like sharon doesnt want the palestinians. To confuse this with any class struggle is bullshit RH, and you know it.
Armenians living in azerbaijan have changed their surnames in fear of persecution.
Dont mix issuers, and dont post blatant propaganda.
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<span style=\'color:red\'>Proleteriat of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!</span>
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Quote: "Azeri Soldiers and Civilians massacre armenians in the whole of Kharabagh" read previous posts where the president of azerbaijan stated "if there is one even one armenian left in azerbaijan he shall be hanged in the central square". "
Do you negate the fact that Armenians also killed Azeris in Nagorny- Karabakh at the very begining of the whole conflict? Come on, Kamo, try to be objective. No one can say who actually did start the mass killings. Armenians?maybe, Azeris? maybe. I am not sure, and no one can be sure. But the fact that the war wasn't of the character you present it is apparent. It was simple fucking war over the territory, nationalistsic war between two nations, which hated each other. ( Do you call it nationalism or you use another term?)
Anyway, I am going to tell about what I have been witness of when I was a kid.
It was the time of the close disintegration of the USSR.( year 1988 or 1989). I lived in Baku with my family back then. The situation was bad: nationalistic conflicts, murders and anti-sovietist demonstrations. I remeber one of those demonstrations, as it took place right by the house I lived in. Just imagine this:
Two different sides ( Azeris and Armenians) and soviet troops in the middle of the "antagonistic" mass, soldiers stood there in order to prevent the conflict which could arise.Both sides yelled : "Karabakh belongs to us!" Both sides wanted this territory.
Damn, I still remember it.
Armenia wanted to contol Karabakh, Azerbaijan didn't give Armenia this territory. The armenian strive for the territorial expansion came first. Nationalism came second and the nationalistic mass killing came as a result of the reasons listed above.
Quote: "read previous posts where the president of azerbaijan stated "if there is one even one armenian left in azerbaijan he shall be hanged in the central square". "
Did he really say that? Please, name me your sources.
quote:"pogroms of the azeris"
Pogrom is russian word. Where do you originally from, comrade?
quote:"they took on and smashed the azeri army, like Che smashed the Batista regime, only the ARmenians didnt want to take azerbaijan over, but protect the armenians living there. "
To say this is the same as to say that socialist revolution = counter revolution.
quote:"
it is ethnic cleansing, azeris didnt want armenians in azerbaijan, like hitler didnt want the jews, like sharon doesnt want the palestinians. To confuse this with any class struggle is bullshit RH, and you know it. "
Please, don't exaggirate.
That is you who confuse the main motive forces of the NK war with the revenge and struggle for "freedom".
quote:"
dont post blatant propaganda"
I present Marxist point of view. You are mistaken about propaganda, Kamo. The only propaganda I do spread is the propaganda of Marxism-Leninism.
(Edited by Revolution Hero at 12:03 am on Nov. 7, 2002)
