palestine

[Xvall]

I invite Drake to name a transport which carried typewritters or calculators from a port in the United States to a port in Vichy France, then, after December 14th, 1941. I invite you to do so.

I can't point out some examples. You'll probably just think they're 'propoganda' or something; but oh well.

Let's see. In 1939, Germany invaded Poland in a vicious bloody blitzkrieg. The starvation and brutalization of the Polish people was page one on the news everywhere, including The New York Times.

On September 13, 1939, The New York Times reports on Page 1 that 3 million Jews are going to be "immediately removed" from Poland, and they appear to be candidates for "physical extermination." On September 9, the German managers of IBM Berlin send a letter to Thomas Watson with copy to staff in Geneva via phone that, due to the "situation," they need high-speed alphabetizing equipment. IBM wanted no paper trail, so an oral agreement was made, passed from New York to Geneva to Berlin, and those alphabetizers were approved by Watson, personally, before the end of the month.

That month he also approved the opening of a new Europe-wide school for Hollerith technicians in Berlin. And at the same time he authorized a new German-based subsidiary in occupied Poland, with a printing plant across the street from the Warsaw Ghetto at 6 Rymarska Street. It produced some 15 million punch cards at that location, the major client of which was the railroad.

We have a similar example involving Romania in 1941, and The Sunday Times has actually placed the IBM documents up on their Web site. You can get to the URL through EdwinBlack.com at either Reviews or Media. When Nazi Germany went into France, IBM built two new factories to supply the Nazi war machine. This is the 1941-'42 era, in Vichy, France, which was technically neutral. When Germany invaded Holland in May 1940, IBM rushed a brand-new subsidiary into occupied Holland. And it even sent 132 million punch cards in 1941, mainly from New York, to support the Nazi activity there. Holland had the highest rate of Jewish extermination in all of Europe; 72 percent of Jews were killed in Holland, compared to 24 percent in France, where the machines did not operate successfully.

This is not proof of their trade with Germany; but it indicates that they had NO problem trading with a country that was KNOWN to participate in barbarous acts, regardless of the fact of weather the holocaust had started at the time or not.

This is indication of their trade after America entered the war.

In October of '41, the whole world knew America was about to enter the war. We had been preparing to enter since 1933, debating it. War fever became most intense from 1937. The question was always, "Can we stay out of the war?" No one knew exactly when. Our entry was of course precipitated by the bombing of Pearl Harbor on December 7. Shortly before that, with sudden new trading-with-the-enemy regulations in force--this is October 1941--Watson issued a cable to all IBM's European subsidiaries, saying in effect: "Don't tell us what you're doing and don't ask us any questions." He didn't say, "Don't send machines into concentration camps." He didn't say, "Stop organizing the military forces of Nazi Germany." He didn't say, "Don't undertake anything to harm innocent civilians."

He then bifurcated the management of IBM Europe--one manager in Geneva, named Werner Lier, and the other one in New York, in his office, named J.L. Schotte. So all communications went from Switzerland to New York. Ultimately there was a Hollerith Department called Hollerith Abteilung--German for department--in almost every concentration camp. Remember, the original Auschwitz tattoo was an IBM number.

Watson stopped all communications with Nazi Germany directly. And in point of fact, he danced on the head of a pin to obey U.S. law. It was the legal participation in genocide--legal because it was pursued through foreign subsidiaries from 1942 to 1945.

I don't like Henry Ford's politics, but I think it ridiculous to claim he knew about the Holocaust. Same goes for IBM.

I am fairly sure that they did not know about the holocaust. But nonetheless IBM did support his regime, and they knew it was anti-semetic. Although that was 'freedom of speech' and 'freedom of trade' I highly dissaprove of it. In addition, many of the machines the reich used were custom made; giving some evidence to the persecution of jews. (There were no universal punch cards or machine wiring. Programs to identify Jews, Jewish bank accounts, barrels of oil, Luftwaffe flights, welfare payments, train schedules into camps, and even some of the the concentration camp information had to be tailored for each application.)

Hindsight is 20/20, and no doubt you would have been amongst the chorus in 1939 who would say, "America, stay out of this European war." And blame business for being responsible for it.

Nazi Germany's fascist war? Prehaps. Who knows. Do not make generalizations Sulla. This was one of the few wars where I was glad the Americans participated; although I was disturbed by things like Dresden and Hiroshima.

And I think by mentioning them to somehow discredit what I have to say about the Mufti of Jerusalem

I assure you I am in no way trying to discredit him. Why would I discredit a Nazi?

And Sulla! I am not pleased that you stated I was a Holocaust Denier!

(Edited by Drake Dracoli at 4:44 pm on Oct. 13, 2002)

[Xvall]

I apologize to everyone for turning this into an IBM debate. I know it is supposed to be about palestine; but we sort of trailed off.

[Guardia Bolivariano]

Viva Palestina libre!

[BARBUDO]

ZIONISM=RACISM

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

To AryaN BLitZKrieG

Nice to meet a persian one up here. Im afgan

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

To AryaN BLitZKrieG

Nice to meet a persian one up here. Im afgan. And my name is Arjan too!!!