ETA

[Angry Young Man]

Originally posted by Organic Revolution@Sep 24 2006, 06:54 PM
The problem in my mind is that the ETA are nationalists... So i dont know to support them or not.

Why is it people think that nationalism is a dirty right-wing eleven letter word? I thought Basque nationalism was about autonomy; the same with Ireland and Palestine. I thought they were about overthrowing the ruling class that invaded their territory and used it for themselves. James Connely was a nationalist, wasn't he? And I do believe he lectured on Marxism in NY. (btw before any smartarses comment, I know he wasn't Basque)

[The Grey Blur]

You defeat Imperialism by creating a Socialist solution, not through minority armed actions

"In our eyes, individual terror is inadmissible precisely because it belittles the role of the masses in their own consciousness, reconciles them to their powerlessness, and turns their eyes and hopes towards a great avenger and liberator who some day will come and accomplish his mission" - Leon Trotsky

[Ander]

That's why there needs to be better communication and collaboration between all wings of the resistance, both armed and political. ETA needs to work closer with Batasuna and the other groups so that both armed revolt as well as mass action can work together.

But the armed struggle is accomplishing nothing and has been a vast failure for the Basque liberation movement. The mass movement may find the need to take some armed actions in the future, depending on circumstances, but a military wing is a dead-end and an historical relic.

I don't think that armed actions should be completely thrown out the window, though I do think that ETA needs to seriously re-examine their mode of operation. As we have both stated, the majority of their victims have been insignificant and I think there should be some changes in that respect.

A major problem is that there isn't a mass movement to provide a core of support. That's why I stress the need for improved communication. I don't think that ETA will get very far by itself, but it should still exist and function, just not alone.

Other than that, most of their victims have not been very significant, I agree. That's why better planning must be made. Although killing right-wing politicians and members of various police/military forces isn't too bad either.

I couldn't care less about some politicians, bosses and other shitjobs getting capped but I recognize that, as a tactic, it is ultimately useless. Political assassinations of this type don't work without a mass movement, and when a mass movement is present there is typically no need. The sensationalist nature of the violence also makes it very easy to be turned against the guerrilla: this has occurred notably in Germany and Italy.

Ok, I agree with you.

What does it matter if some of their victims are Basques? Not all Basques are going to stand together on this issue, religion is one problem that is still a large influence in the region. Taking out some ignorant Basque who will only stand in the way doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me, how about you?

ETA has what, less than 10% support? That is a lot of "ignorant Basques who will only stand in the way" to murder. Liberation is, at this point, not going to be won by force of arms against the state.

It doesn't matter so much that ETA has support as it does Basque nationalism. The great majority of Basques favour some kind of autonomy or independence from Spain, all they need is more education. With Batasuna and ETA leading the way, this could be a situation worth watching and supporting.

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by Jello@Sep 28 2006, 09:36 PM
It doesn't matter so much that ETA has support as it does Basque nationalism. The great majority of Basques favour some kind of autonomy or independence from Spain, all they need is more education. With Batasuna and ETA leading the way, this could be a situation worth watching and supporting.

I would be very interested in hearing a practical reason why Socialists should support Batasuna, who appear to simply be the Sinn Fein of the Basque country

[bcbm]

I don't think that armed actions should be completely thrown out the window, though I do think that ETA needs to seriously re-examine their mode of operation. As we have both stated, the majority of their victims have been insignificant and I think there should be some changes in that respect.

Why keep around an historical relic that is meaningless to the current political situation and detrimental to the movement as a whole? Continuing the absurdity of the armed party will only serve to keep the state in control of the situation. And if you're suggesting they move to more high-level targets, that would be even stupider than the low-level ones. Unfortunately most people currently buy into the democratic farce and the armed specialists have become obsolete.

A major problem is that there isn't a mass movement to provide a core of support. That's why I stress the need for improved communication. I don't think that ETA will get very far by itself, but it should still exist and function, just not alone.

You're still positioning the armed party at the forefront of the struggle, when it is the mass movement that should occupy that position. If armed actions of such a spectacular nature are needed, which they certainly won't be for some time, then the movement can use its own resources to undertake them. This makes it harder for the state to act against it and harder to criminalize the Basque struggle. ETA doesn't need to chat more, it needs to fade into history and the etarras should rejoin the movement as above-ground activists and build Basque class consciousness. It is already present among many (note Basque dockworker's struggles), and could easily be expanded. The armed party is deadweight holding the movement back.

The great majority of Basques favour some kind of autonomy or independence from Spain, all they need is more education. With Batasuna and ETA leading the way, this could be a situation worth watching and supporting.

You have it backwards. The movement should be autonomous and led by the under-classes within Basque society. ETA, and Batasuna really, should both be rejected. They, like so many nationalist and partisan gangsters of the past, only want to be in control of the situation and channel genuine mass anger and action into mere support for their programs and actions. This is detrimental to Basque, or anyone's, liberation as it reinforces the traditional capitalist spectator-actor relationship. Build under-class consciousness, not armed specialist spectacular struggle.

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by NewKindOfSoldier@Sep 25 2006, 08:19 PM

i highly doubt that

the old IRA (i assume we're talking 1917-1921) was quite large, and did have alot of support.

If you're talking actual active militants, ok, or those supporting the easter rebellion at the start, maybe, but people generally wanting the british to fuck off, that was a lot more.

I know its kinda hard to digest, but its true. Its the biggest myth ever that the easter rising had popular support. It was composed of a few hard-core Militants that decided to take advantage of the UK in a vulnerable situation. Back then Irish people openly referred to themselves as being 'british'.

Its only when people saw the torture of the 1916 leaders that they began to change.
Even after that the IRA was still an underground movement and the PIRA back in the 1970's was probably larger than the old IRA of 1921 etc...

Social conditions are mostly whats responsible for the support the old IRA did get.

[pastradamus]

Originally posted by Irish_Republican@Sep 26 2006, 01:34 AM
Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.

So....Tell me all about the history of the IRA and I'll tell you all about what you dont know compánach na hEireann.

[Seven Stars]

Originally posted by pastradamus+Sep 30 2006, 01:41 AM--> (pastradamus @ Sep 30 2006, 01:41 AM)

Irish_Republican

@Sep 26 2006, 01:34 AM
Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.

So....Tell me all about the history of the IRA and I'll tell you all about what you dont know compánach na hEireann. [/b]

yeah ur a fuckin expert sayin the IRA didn't have popular support durring the tan war! ur stupid d fuckin ****! and no shit the Easter Rising was only supported by an minority, thank you capt. fuckin obvious!!

you fuckin lefties need a fuckin life...leave ur pcs for 3 hrs and go and get laid! ur such fuckin losers its not even funny! ur nothing but middle class fuckin wankers who don't know shit...u think that some elite group of intelectuals will lead the revolution...ur so fuckin out of touch with the reall workin classs...get off ur fat bourgeois asses and do somethin...u middle class assholes...the real workin would just beat the living shit out of you!

[The Grey Blur]

Originally posted by Irish_Republican+Oct 1 2006, 06:27 AM--> (Irish_Republican @ Oct 1 2006, 06:27 AM)

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 01:41 AM

Irish_Republican

@Sep 26 2006, 01:34 AM
Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.

So....Tell me all about the history of the IRA and I'll tell you all about what you dont know compánach na hEireann.

yeah ur a fuckin expert sayin the IRA didn't have popular support durring the tan war! ur stupid d fuckin ****! and no shit the Easter Rising was only supported by an minority, thank you capt. fuckin obvious!!

you fuckin lefties need a fuckin life...leave ur pcs for 3 hrs and go and get laid! ur such fuckin losers its not even funny! ur nothing but middle class fuckin wankers who don't know shit...u think that some elite group of intelectuals will lead the revolution...ur so fuckin out of touch with the reall workin classs...get off ur fat bourgeois asses and do somethin...u middle class assholes...the real workin would just beat the living shit out of you! [/b]

Nice one

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Originally posted by Irish_Republican+Oct 1 2006, 06:27 AM--> (Irish_Republican @ Oct 1 2006, 06:27 AM)

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2006, 01:41 AM

Irish_Republican

@Sep 26 2006, 01:34 AM
Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.

So....Tell me all about the history of the IRA and I'll tell you all about what you dont know compánach na hEireann.

yeah ur a fuckin expert sayin the IRA didn't have popular support durring the tan war! ur stupid d fuckin ****! and no shit the Easter Rising was only supported by an minority, thank you capt. fuckin obvious!!

you fuckin lefties need a fuckin life...leave ur pcs for 3 hrs and go and get laid! ur such fuckin losers its not even funny! ur nothing but middle class fuckin wankers who don't know shit...u think that some elite group of intelectuals will lead the revolution...ur so fuckin out of touch with the reall workin classs...get off ur fat bourgeois asses and do somethin...u middle class assholes...the real workin would just beat the living shit out of you! [/b]

You fail at logical debate.

[( R )evolution]

I support ETA and the Basque indepeantant movment. ETA needs to rethink there plans to getting indepeance but at least they are doing something. Also, I was under the imperssion that ETA tries it bests not to kill innocent civilans and it when it happens it is very unusal, dont they usually kill Judges and Politicans? And then Blanco And I know at least 5 Basque people and they all support ETA, so I am assuming they have some popular support.