Armed action is only succesful when its the spearhead of a large mass movement, or simply the entire mass movement engaging in armed struggle.
In any other situation, it only leads to alienation from the masses.
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disarm?
There are a still a few tonnes of the wepons in Provo ownage.
"It is we the workers who built these palaces and cities here in Spain and in America and everywhere. We, the workers, can build others to take their place. And better ones! We are not in the least afraid of ruins. " - Buenaventura Durutti
"The life of a single human being is worth a million times more than all the property of the richest man on earth." - Ernesto Che Guevara.
"Its Called the American dream, because you gotta be asleep to believe it". - George Carlin
Tone ~ Emmet ~ Larkin ~ Connolly ~ O Donnell
www.union.ie
Armed action is only succesful when its the spearhead of a large mass movement, or simply the entire mass movement engaging in armed struggle.
In any other situation, it only leads to alienation from the masses.
ο λαός θα πεί την τελευταία λέξη - αυτές οι νύχτες είναι του αλέξη!
Freedom without equality is privilege - Equality without freedom is a barracks
'Engels, my brother from another class,
we haz got to get fucked up on the grog, and then revolt...if the lessons of the Paris Commune has taught as such, the working class cannot lay hold of the ready made bourgeoisie alcohol, they must smash it, and get pissed on cheap methylated spirits.
holler,
marxy.'
- BCBM=AndreasBaader
Not true. When Ireland achieved its Independance the old IRA had only 1% of the populations support and still caused enough trouble to eventually succeed to an extent.
"It is we the workers who built these palaces and cities here in Spain and in America and everywhere. We, the workers, can build others to take their place. And better ones! We are not in the least afraid of ruins. " - Buenaventura Durutti
"The life of a single human being is worth a million times more than all the property of the richest man on earth." - Ernesto Che Guevara.
"Its Called the American dream, because you gotta be asleep to believe it". - George Carlin
Tone ~ Emmet ~ Larkin ~ Connolly ~ O Donnell
www.union.ie
As the resident Basque here, I have to say I support ETA's struggle. However, I am concerned about their mode of operation. There is a fine line between terrorist and freedom fighter, ETA needs to watch its step.
1%?
i highly doubt that
the old IRA (i assume we're talking 1917-1921) was quite large, and did have alot of support.
If you're talking actual active militants, ok, or those supporting the easter rebellion at the start, maybe, but people generally wanting the british to fuck off, that was a lot more.
ο λαός θα πεί την τελευταία λέξη - αυτές οι νύχτες είναι του αλέξη!
Freedom without equality is privilege - Equality without freedom is a barracks
'Engels, my brother from another class,
we haz got to get fucked up on the grog, and then revolt...if the lessons of the Paris Commune has taught as such, the working class cannot lay hold of the ready made bourgeoisie alcohol, they must smash it, and get pissed on cheap methylated spirits.
holler,
marxy.'
- BCBM=AndreasBaader
False.
Veeeery false.
WTF are you talking about???
PD: Jello, nongoa zira?
Nope, I was of this opinion as well then my parents and grandparents informed me that the War of Independence was deeply unpopular apart from in West Cork and some other isolated areas.
“It is not true that people stop pursuing dreams because they grow old, they grow old because they stop pursuing dreams.” - Gabriel Garcia Marquez
"What forces can bring the national question to a successful conclusion? Only the working class can do so." - Ta Power
The statement made in the article at the beginning of this thread contradicts your assertion. The split into ETA-M and ETA-PM was largely over this issue, but both sides maintained a commitment to socialism, even in the vaguest sense.
Actually, ETA was pivotal in the quick demise of the fascist regime. Prior to Franco's death, he'd prepared a successor who was a high level member of the state. I forget his name, but the ETA called him "Ogro." In any case, ETA murdered him with a good sized bomb, seriously damaging any possibility of continuing fascism.
Fascism shouldn't be fought because the state might crack down on people who are not neccessarily involved?
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ETA crossed that line ages ago. The armed party is a relic of history and new modes of struggle need to be adopted. I think the kale borroka shows more promise than bombs or guns, especially when action is taken outside of a larger movement.
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
I suppose you have some sort of proper argument, otherwise I'll ignore what you just said.
Their actions are against socialism, therefore they are not socialists.
The dictatorship would have eventually collapsed anyway.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be fought. However, terrorism is counter-revolutionary and something which any socialist knows.
Look, you don't live in Spain, so you don't know how it is. And you don't have the right information about them either.
"El ideal del P.S.O.E. es la completa emancipación de la clase trabajadora; Es decir, la abolición de todas las clases sociales y su declaración y conversión en una sola clase de trabajadores, dueños del fruto de su trabajo, libres, iguales, honrados e inteligentes." -Pablo Iglesias (founder of PSOE and UGT)
"Quienes contraponen liberalismo y socialismo, o no conocen el primero o no saben los verdaderos objetivos del segundo." -Pablo Iglesias
Art. 1.º España es una República democrática de trabajadores de toda clase, que se
organiza en régimen de Libertad y de Justicia.
This is a pretty cheap cop-out. Socialism is simply the empowered working class assuming state control (more or less). Actions taken to get to this point are up for debate, and I think its absurd to say they are not coming from a ML or socialist background.
Maybe, maybe not. Either way, ETA's assassination of Blanco hastened it's collapse. Even unsympathetic commentators have conceded to that.
What constitutes terrorism (or rather, whether it is a bad thing), especially under a fascist state, is certainly open to debate. Were resistance fighters throughout Europe "terrorists" for assassinating agents of the Nazi occupation? I agree that indiscriminate bombing and murder is not a revolutionary tactic, but a more focused campaign can be very effective under certain conditions.
I don't need to live in Spain to be familiar with its history and its various political factions (you're using a logical fallacy); indeed, I have studied the subject a great deal. And everything I am saying is verified in a number of sources, would you like me to list them?
And just to be clear, I am not saying ETA is correct or should exist: the armed party has been an abject failure. That doesn't mean everything the organization has ever done is automatically wrong.
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
I'd also like to read a proper argument from Makartxo
Sciences & Environment rocks my bedroom.
[FONT=Arial]Say what you mean and say it mean...[/FONT]
"Frankly if we have a revolution and you stop me eating meat, I'm going to eat you."- The inimitable Skinz.
Be careful, lest the time comes where we have to weigh you against a duck.
I only wish I spoke the language, my friend. That's what happens when you never live there and you are constantly moving around. English, Spanish, and Portuguese are good enough for me right now, but one day I definitely want to learn Basque.
That motherfucker's name is Carrero Blanco...a name I will never forget. It's such a great accomplishment by ETA, probably their most important.
I don't understand much of the anti-ETA attitudes here. Here is a leftist group who is willing to stand up and fight for what they believe, yet they are bad people? They have taken out several politicians and upper class assholes who only stand in the way of what we believe in. The civilian casualties that have occurred are certainly unfortunate and unacceptable and this is my only criticism. If more care is taken to leave innocent people out of the conflict, then fight on ETA!
Yes, they do have some nationalist tendencies, but I think they definitely have a good reason for them. Basque people have been oppressed for decades under Franco and other dictators and still remain part of Spain, a nation whose people have nothing to do with them! I don't know what sounds cozier than a socialist republic sandwiched in between Spain and France...
If you want to hear about oppression by Franco, ask my father and grandparents. My dad will tell you how he was forbidden to speak Basque in school or else he would be beaten. Cultural repression anyone?
You trendy lefties make me laugh. Once again, a place where Revolution is happening, you are the fist to attack and condemn it. Your replies on this thread show you have a lot to learn about the use of Armed Struggle and for some of you, the History of the IRA durring the Tan War.
If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. - James Connolly
The Irish Republican Socialist Movement exists to agitate, educate and organise within our class and to mobilise our fellow workers towards the objective of removing the Northern colonial and Southern neo-colonial statelets on this island, thus ending imperialism and capitalism, and preparing the basic structures for an Irish Workers' Republic.
It's a legitimate criticism of ETA. They haven't brought the Basque homeland independence, and if they try to bring back the armed struggle, they'll be further away from their goals. Acting like a terrorist organization hasn't helped the cause either. The assassination of Luis Carrero Blanco was the only major progressive step they took.
It's easy to see
Evil as entity
Not as condition
Inside you and me
-Eugene Hutz
It is good to stand up and fight, but one also needs to consider what tactics will work best to achieve the goals one is fighting for. At this point, the minority armed party has proven to be a resolute failure. The path to victory lies in mass action of the organized under-classes, not a bunch of armed specialists leading the struggle from afar through spectacular violence.
I'd say it is a fairly large criticism. Taking out low-level targets of little importance may be satisfying, but it makes for bad propaganda and ultimately doesn't gain the ETA much sympathy from the people they are trying to liberate, particularly when said targets are Basques.
And achieve what?
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I don't think an extremely small minority engaging in ineffective and spectacular violent action qualifies as a revolution.
I fail to see how an unpopular minority organization engaging in futile armed actions without mass under class supporting action is effective.
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
The fact of the matter is that the ETA are authoritarian, vanguardist nationalists. I dont think, me as an anarchist, should be supporting the ETA when they support nationalism and the setting up of another state dictatorship.
It goes one for the student who refuses to submit and two for the teacher who is under-paid as shit, and three for the strikes who give young bloods life and four for the years you spent stifled inside.
Infoshop
First of all, my spoken/written english is very poor, so I find quite difficult to write in this language (I live in spanish and basque). ETA has never said that they're not socialists, so the first quote is just false. You said "and in fact [they] made it official during the 90's": unless you can find any statement that supports that idea, we must supose you're lying.
It`s really surprising when you say "These people haven't even killed more than 500 people in their whole history". All the fucking spanish media (that say, more or less, what you say about "evil ETA") are crying each day that ETA killed more than 800 people. It's really surprising what you say: would ETA be a better organization if they had killed more people?
And, when you wrote "In fact, they simply made it more repressive (their acts cost the lives of many students who had nothing to do with it)", I simply want to know who those "many students" were. Maybe you have discovered secret events about the last years of dictatorship, so, please, share them with us.
Last but not least: you say that your view is the proper one because you are spanish. Well, if you're spanish, I'm basque, and we've very different visions. Would you say that the only ones who can talk about PIRA, RIRA or CIRA are the middle english citizens?? It's really crazy, so it doesn't deserve an answer. Mind yourself if YOU have the right info about this, or you're just following spanish oligarchy's discurse.
I hope you all will understand what I'm saying, if not please tell me, I've said my english is horrible.
With this I meant that they're not as effective as other major terrorist/nationalist organizations. If they had a better organization, better information and supply of equipment, they'd have done much more damage in less time.
It was quite normal that the action taken by one would make others, suspected of socialist sympathies, be endangered of arrest and posibly execution.
I'm not saying that it's proper because i'm Spanish, but because I've been directly affected by this. This is why I can say this about ETA. Their methods are nationalistic more than leftist, if they still have any of that. Their independence comes only once communism has been achieved, once the individual states have been decentralised.
"El ideal del P.S.O.E. es la completa emancipación de la clase trabajadora; Es decir, la abolición de todas las clases sociales y su declaración y conversión en una sola clase de trabajadores, dueños del fruto de su trabajo, libres, iguales, honrados e inteligentes." -Pablo Iglesias (founder of PSOE and UGT)
"Quienes contraponen liberalismo y socialismo, o no conocen el primero o no saben los verdaderos objetivos del segundo." -Pablo Iglesias
Art. 1.º España es una República democrática de trabajadores de toda clase, que se
organiza en régimen de Libertad y de Justicia.
That's why there needs to be better communication and collaboration between all wings of the resistance, both armed and political. ETA needs to work closer with Batasuna and the other groups so that both armed revolt as well as mass action can work together.
Carrero Blanco was definitely not a low-level target. Other than that, most of their victims have not been very significant, I agree. That's why better planning must be made. Although killing right-wing politicians and members of various police/military forces isn't too bad either.
What does it matter if some of their victims are Basques? Not all Basques are going to stand together on this issue, religion is one problem that is still a large influence in the region. Taking out some ignorant Basque who will only stand in the way doesn't seem like such a bad thing to me, how about you?
The assassination of reactionary trash?
As for the nationalism of ETA, I don't think everyone is examining the circumstances of this particular struggle. The Basques don't have a state, they lack a nation. Whereas other groups fighting for the same purpose usually do so in established countries with borders, ETA and other Basque nationalists do not. The Basque people are part of a nation they have nothing to do with! Their languages are not related in the slightest, their cultures are different, their people are not the same! I generally do not have much like for nationalism, but this is an entirely different case. Once a Basque country is truly established, then will come the transition to a socialist state.
And as for any of you who are spitting out numbers and trying to tell everyone that there is little support for ETA, stop thinking with such narrow minds. How high is the percentage of people with any kind of revolutionary mindset in America? Canada? Australia? The list can keep going on and on. Add all the propaganda we hear from our imperialist governments and no wonder many people are afraid of associating themselves with ETA at all.
It's our twisted governments who call the shots on who is a freedom fighter and who is a terrorist, unfortunately.
But the armed struggle is accomplishing nothing and has been a vast failure for the Basque liberation movement. The mass movement may find the need to take some armed actions in the future, depending on circumstances, but a military wing is a dead-end and an historical relic.
I couldn't care less about some politicians, bosses and other shitjobs getting capped but I recognize that, as a tactic, it is ultimately useless. Political assassinations of this type don't work without a mass movement, and when a mass movement is present there is typically no need. The sensationalist nature of the violence also makes it very easy to be turned against the guerrilla: this has occurred notably in Germany and Italy.
ETA has what, less than 10% support? That is a lot of "ignorant Basques who will only stand in the way" to murder. Liberation is, at this point, not going to be won by force of arms against the state.
... I wonder if anyone remembers when I had an ETA avatar.
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
