Govt of Madrid discriminates against thin people

[TC]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/12092006/325/spai...hion-world.html

MADRID (Reuters) - The world's first ban on overly thin models at a top-level fashion show in Madrid has caused outrage among modelling agencies and raised the prospect of restrictions at other venues.

Madrid's fashion week has turned away underweight models after protests that girls and young women were trying to copy their rail-thin looks and developing eating disorders.

Organisers say they want to project an image of beauty and health, rather than a waif-like, or heroin chic look.
But Cathy Gould, of New York's Elite modelling agency, said the fashion industry was being used as a scapegoat for illnesses like anorexia and bulimia.

"I think its outrageous, I understand they want to set this tone of healthy beautiful women, but what about discrimination against the model and what about the freedom of the designer," said Gould, Elite's North America director, adding that the move could harm careers of naturally "gazelle-like" models.

Madrid's regional government, which sponsors the show and imposed restrictions, said it did not blame designers and models for anorexia. It said the fashion industry had a responsibility to portray healthy body images.

"Fashion is a mirror and many teenagers imitate what they see on the catwalk," said regional official Concha Guerra.

The mayor of Milan, Italy, Letizia Moratti, told an Italian newspaper this week she would seek a similar ban for her city's show unless it could find a solution to "sick" looking models.

QUALITY, NOT SIZE

The Madrid show is using the body mass index or BMI -- based on weight and height -- to measure models. It has turned away 30 percent of women who took part in the previous event. Medics will be on hand at the September 18-22 show to check models.

"The restrictions could be quite a shock to the fashion world at the beginning, but I'm sure it's important as far as health is concerned," said Leonor Perez Pita, director of Madrid's show, also known as the Pasarela Cibeles.

A spokeswoman for the Association of Fashion Designers of Spain, which represents those at Madrid fashion week, said the group supported restrictions and its concern was the quality of collections, not the size of models.

Eating disorder activists said many Spanish model agencies and designers oppose the ban and they had doubts whether the new rules would be followed.

"If they don't go along with it the next step is to seek legislation, just like with tobacco," said Carmen Gonzalez of Spain's Association in Defence of Attention for Anorexia and Bulimia, which has campaigned for restrictions since the 1990s.
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Paternalistist reactions have very consistently led to a desire to control young women's bodies, and systematically discriminating against thin young women, literally censuring images of thin young women so as to discourage other young women from making decisions about how they want to look that are different from how their parents would want them to look, is really no different from other reactionary forms of discriminatory control...whether its preventing young women from having abortions or making it harder for them to get contraceptives or make their own decisions about how they want to look, the paternalistic attack on their personal freedom and autonomy is the same.

The notion of wanting to promote a "healthy look" and shame people who have weights below it (but, curiously not overweight people who have real health risks) doesn't promote "health" it simply promotes a more fertile body type, something that i think relates to the paternalistic obsession with controlling female reproductive capacity (as discussed in this thread). There is absolutely nothing "unhealthy" about thin models and to try to make people feel bad about their bodies by putting visible representations of them out of work is as arbitrary as discrimination against any other body type. It also reinforces the media/social/parental obsession with "eating disorders" in teenage girls, one of the latest ways that reactionaries have tried to pathologize, discredit and thereby justify their desire to control young women. Anorexia is today's "hysteria."

[mauvaise foi]

Originally posted by TragicClown@Sep 13 2006, 02:18 AM

literally censuring images of thin young women so as to discourage other young women from making decisions about how they want to look that are different from how their parents would want them to look

Are young girls being coerced to look how their parents want them to look significantly worse than them being coerced to look how the modeling industry wants them to look?

Young girls who starve themselves are not making autonomous choices. They have been brainwashed by capitalism and the patriarchy.

[TC]

Thats utterly untrue. In the media there are people of all different shapes and sizes, there are skinny models and plus sized models, if they happen to like the look like one rather than another thats an autonomous choice, they could have made the opposite judgement. Exposing people to images of thin people, while exposing them to images of people of every other body type they see all the time, doesn't coerce them into wanting to look that way among other ways, to suggest as much is absurd. On the other hand, parents who tell their daughters that they're too thin, that they're unnattractive, unhealthy looking, that they need to eat more, and that if they like their bodies the way they are theres something wrong with them, is coercieve. Worse, for minors, it always contains an implied threat of institutionalization, of force.

To attribute young girl's aesthetic judgements to 'brainwashing' is to dehumanize them and question their agency. Do you think some men want to look physically attractive in a particular aesthetic because of capitalism or because thats just how they want to look, thats how they feel good about themselves?

Why is it that only young girl's choices are scrutinized, dismissed and questioned?

[mauvaise foi]

Thats utterly untrue. In the media there are people of all different shapes and sizes, there are skinny models and plus sized models

Uh, do you even watch TV? When was the last time you saw a fat supermodel on television?

Do you think some men want to look physically attractive in a particular aesthetic because of capitalism

Yes, in fact I do.

[TC]

Originally posted by mauvaise foi@Sep 13 2006, 04:32 AM

Uh, do you even watch TV? When was the last time you saw a fat supermodel on television?

You see fat people on TV all the freak'n time, if you judge these people to be less attractive has to do with your judgements not with the TV's.

Do you think some men want to look physically attractive in a particular aesthetic because of capitalism

Yes, in fact I do.

Well thats even more ridiculous. Can you offer any plausible hypothesis for why this should be the case.


In any case, even if they were influenced by capitalism, forcing perfectly healthy people to change their bodies by putting on weight just to please the spanish government is totalitarianism not anti-capitalism.

[Severian]

Legal/state coercion is not the only kind of coercion, y'know.

There's market coercion/economic coercion, for example. You might consider that models are routinely subjected to this kind of coercion - told to lose weight if they want to get hired or keep working. These women are not all necessarily that super-thin naturally or voluntarily.

And there's the subtler pressures excercised by the mass media. Including their promotion of unrealistic and harmful standards of beauty - where a lot of models and actresses are so thin as to appear anorexic. Whether they are anorexic is not the point - in order to meet that standard of beauty, most women would have to be.

Certainly most models and actresses are thinner than the general population, Mauvaise Foi is totally right about that!

All of those are larger problems than this law.

But I don't think that this kind of law is the answer, and it could potentially set some negative precedents in terms of the power of the state. I don't want the capitalist state to have the option of having the power to ban certain people from certain types of work.

Rather than banning super-skinny models....why not ban discrimination against normal-to-fat models?

***

Probably the motives for this law include a desire to appear feminist, and maybe to expand the power of the capitalist state under that cover.

It is a little funny that you'd be up in arms about this in particular as an example of "discrimination", and that you'd deny that there is any social problem with overly thin beauty standards.

Both are apparently common reactions on the right; For example

Originally posted by Daily Pundit
© The Spanish initiative is really diversity politics. Models are tall, and not every ethnic group produces very many tall people. Because the Spanish formula involves a height-to-weight ratio, there are two ways to be in compliance. One is for tall models to be heavier. The other is for models to be shorter. Bingo – forced multiculturalism comes to the fashion industry, without the obviousness and divisiveness of resorting to racial quotas.
.....
(e) There’s an army of radical feminists and other communizing, deconstructing totalitarians behind the curtain. None of the reasons they will offer have anything to do with their true goals. In European politics, everything is a lie.

(Edited sentence before ****, for clarity.)

[Luís Henrique]

If there is discrimination on this issue, it is discrimination against fat people, that for some reason are deemed unsexy (they aren't).

And, of course, against women. The fashion industry loves women who are not only skinny, but that appear helpless. They sometimes even wear make-up to make them look as if they have just cried, or been beaten. For some males, that's supposed to be attractive.

Yeach, I say.

Luís Henrique

[mauvaise foi]

You see fat people on TV all the freak'n time, if you judge these people to be less attractive has to do with your judgements not with the TV's.

Its not that fat people don't appear on television, its that companies don't often use fat people to sell products. I would think this would be obvious. When was the last time you saw a fat guy in an Old Navy commercial?
Why do companies constantly portray people with a certain type of figure in their advertisements? Is it because the public finds these type of people attractive? Or does the public find these people attractive because that's what they are exposed to every day? I suspect the arrow of causation points in both directions.

Well thats even more ridiculous. Can you offer any plausible hypothesis for why this should be the case.

Certainly. Boys see professional athletes (who tend to be of a certain body type), for example, and think that they have to be like those people they see on TV, or else they're not really "men." Both sexes fase societal pressures to conform to a certain image they are told will make them attractive to the opposite sex.

In any case, even if they were influenced by capitalism, forcing perfectly healthy people to change their bodies by putting on weight just to please the spanish government is totalitarianism not anti-capitalism.

That's fair. But can't we at least agree that there is a real problem of young people of both sexes being socially coerced to conform to a certain body type?

[drain.you]

I'm sorry but I see thousands of women dieting and being depressed with their bodies as unhealthy. They diet and get depressed because the cappie media gives out a message saying what the 'perfect' body ought to be and people want to be perfect so much that many young teenager girls commit suicide in frustration with how they look.
I see this move as a good thing and I agree with everything comrade mauvaise foi is saying.

[which doctor]

There are two groups of peple upset with this. The capitalist modeling corporations and the TragicClown boat (yes, you have your own boat&#33.

I don't trust the decisions much of young girls, but of course I don't trust the decisions of any ignorant, brainwashed masses.

Ask yourself, what is fashion? What makes someone beautiful? There can't be set pre-programmed standard, it changes all the time! The capitalist corporations tell all kinds of people that thin = beautiful. People really shouldn't be believing this shit.

This is sort of like "reverse racism" in a sense.

Madrid may not have taken the right move, they should have instead encouraged "normal" sized women to model.

[Quills]

The models have to have a MINIMUM bmi of 18. 18 is the lowest you can get before you're compared to a starving somalian child. The models with under 18 BMI are obviously not just making a lifestyle choice and excercising control over their bodies. It's not skinny people that are being discriminated against, it's people that are likely to have eating disorders.

EDIT: Didn't Israel do this a while ago?

[mauvaise foi]

Originally posted by FoB@Sep 14 2006, 01:32 AM
This is sort of like "reverse racism" in a sense.

How is this like "reverse racism" (a meaningless phrase)?

[Herman]

I can't believe that the OP believes that Madrid is discriminating against thin people. The only ones discriminated are the anorexic ones. Do you know how many models are in their bones? This is a good step foward against the stereotypical thin/you-must-be-anorexic woman.

[which doctor]

Originally posted by mauvaise foi+Sep 13 2006, 10:07 PM--> (mauvaise foi @ Sep 13 2006, 10:07 PM)

FoB

@Sep 14 2006, 01:32 AM
This is sort of like "reverse racism" in a sense.

How is this like "reverse racism" (a meaningless phrase)? [/b]

Well, it's almost always the obese people who are being discriminated against, now it's the super skinny people being discriminated against.

[Morag]

It isn't reverse prejudice, because these models are being told that, based on the best scientific means to test such things (the BMI), they are unhealthy and that Spain does not wish to have unhealthy people shown as what people should aspire to. They haven't just looked at them and said, "too skinny!" Designers prefer thin models because the clothes drape better off their bodies, not necessarily because their deemed prettier (remember it is designers who decide who models what and which "look" is interesting, not the media itself), but that's no excuse to enable the illness if women and girls who should be healthy and are not because of the pressure of their industry.

At the same time, it isn't paternalism. Women can do whatever they want with their bodies. Spain isn't stopping that. They're just giving preference to those women (and I assume men) who are healthy. That's the only way the sick nature of "thin thin thin" will end in the fashion industry- which in turn is likely the only way to get the number of ana's and mia's more manageable to those who are actually sick.

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

It is called an eating disorder for a reason. Someone may choose (though not rationally) to do something inappropriate. This something can be starving themselves. In a sense, someone is brainwashed into doing something inappropriate. If all circumstances were perfect, people would make flawless decisions. Therefore, the questions becomes should we force people to be rational when they are hurting themselves. If so, when?

It isn't to the same extent, but religion is brainwashing. Should we force the religious to get help? Should we force someone who smokes into rehab? Eliminating the cause of such problems is the best solution, in my opinion. As someone who has struggled with depression in the past (and has it controlled now), I hesitate to support an legislation that forces someone (mentally stable or not) to get help. Can you honestly imagine wanting to die every day and being forced to stay alive? I wouldn't want that.

The Spain thing isn't a big deal, though. Setting a proper example for youth is important in solving the problem.

[feline]

A BMI below 18 is not healthy. A person at a BMI of 17.5 or less is diagnosable with anorexia. The fashion industry massively discriminates against not just overweight, but healthy weight women, which sends a rather horrendous message to women of all ages regarding what is 'attractive' - and what 'looks good in clothes'.

Plenty of eating disordered girls and women do, in fact, look to thin models and actresses as inspiration ('thinspiration&#39. The media is not the cause of eating disorders, but it does play into the mindset. I'm having a difficult time having a major problem with a government attempting to encourage women to be healthy.

And designers now have a special fundamental human right to the freedom to design clothes for the unrealistically thin? That's sickeningly distorted, and indicates that the models are certainly not the ones in control in the fashion industry.

[TC]

Because i'm frankly embarrased by the liberal-morality paternalism in this thread, i promiss to write a detailed response, first a general detailed response and then i'll try to address each worthwhile post individually. But today i'm rather busy so i wont get to it probably until tonight or tomorrow.


I'd like to start by saying though that this long tangent on anorexia has very little to do with the actions of the government of Madrid. It is not targeting "anorexic" women, it is not targeting women with eating disorders, with unhealthy bodies or who are psychologically disturbed, women with poor self esteem or self-destructive eating habits and what not. Instead targeting thin women, young girls really many or most of the people affected being younger than the people posting in this thread, who simply have body types, within the normal range, that it regards with distain.

There is nothing good about about trying to make people feel ashamed of their bodies and to suggest as much is disgustingly reactionary. The issue to the spanish authorities is not "eating disorders", people with self destructive eating behavior come in all sizes (extra large being the most common&#33 and many people, especially teenagers as most of these models are, naturally have that type of build and body type. To tell them by censuring models of a similar size that their bodies imply that they're mentally disturbed, that they need to be censured, marginalized and it would be horrible if people viewed them as attractive or beautiful, and further that society has a right to demand or even force them to change their bodies, is as discriminatory and prejudicial as targeting any other demographic group in a similar manner.


Why the fuck should thin young women have to explain, appologize for, feel ashamed of, reject and change their bodies just because bourgeois society doesn't like the way it looks and associates it with them acting out in a way it regards as both pathological and rebellious, whether or not this was ever the case.

[Severian]

Originally posted by TragicClown@Sep 16 2006, 05:28 AM
I'd like to start by saying though that this long tangent on anorexia has very little to do with the actions of the government of Madrid. It is not targeting "anorexic" women, it is not targeting women with eating disorders, with unhealthy bodies or who are psychologically disturbed, women with poor self esteem or self-destructive eating habits and what not.

The consensus of medical researchers seems to disagree with you there. To put it midly.

According to the Washington Post: "Under the Madrid ruling, models must have a BMI rating of around 18. That would disqualify top Spanish model Esther Canadas, and supermodels like Kate Moss, based on unofficial records of their height and weight."

How is anorexia diagnosed?

ANOREXIA NERVOSA
Medical Symptoms
Essential to the diagnosis of AN is that patients weigh less than 85% of that expected. There are several ways to determine < 85th %. For adults (>20 years of age) a BMI <18.5 is considered underweight and a BMI <17.5 is diagnostic for AN (6,22).

source

What other people have BMI below 18?
Search for "body mass index below 18", subtracting out articles about this Spanish law

Turns up a lot of articles about AIDS patients and other serious ill people, with phrases like "35% of the participants had a body mass index below 18,. indicating that they were underweight and possibly malnourished..." and "Patients with a Body Mass Index below 18 would ideally be admitted to hospital to begin treatment and should remain as in-patients until their nutritional ..."

I&#39;m really not sure why you&#39;re denying that this has anything to do with anorexia; why would that make a difference to you?

In the past, you&#39;ve fervently argued for the right to be anorexic. As a number of people pointed out to you in that thread, starving yourself causes all kinds of cardiovascular and other problems.

That&#39;s why Anorexia nervosa has one of the highest mortality rates of all psychiatric disorders, with rates reported from 5-18%

As I said earlier, I don&#39;t think this law is the answer - mostly &#39;cause I don&#39;t think the capitalist state is the answer. Also, it&#39;d be better to mandate some diversity of body types than to ban the super-skinny.

But it&#39;s truly bizarre that you&#39;d deny there&#39;s a problem. It is not rational to starve yourself to death.

[violencia.Proletariat]

Who the fuck cares about this? I wasn&#39;t aware the working class had a problem with anorexia. I&#39;m pretty sure the "just in a famine" look is a problem with the petty bourgeois. Idk about you but I dont give a fucking shit about what petty bourgeois kids are or aren&#39;t eating. Thats their own damn problem.

The capitalist corporations tell all kinds of people that thin = beautiful. People really shouldn&#39;t be believing this shit.

So you support a government limiting this? Aren&#39;t you an anarchist?

I don&#39;t trust the decisions much of young girls

So you have the right to determine whats best for them?


I think theres a little more pressing issue that concerns us, the overthrow of capitalism. You all can dwell on petty bourgeois social problems that don&#39;t effect a significant ammount of the population. I just suggest you are wasting your time.