Thread: Allied War Crimes; Part 2

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  1. #1
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    This is my next topic, i will post introduction tomorrow.
    Captain Blackadder: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Us, the Russians and the French on one side, Germany and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea being that each army would act as the other's deterrent. That way, there could never be a war.
    Private Baldrick: Except, this is sort of a war, isn't it?
    Captain Blackadder: That's right. There was one tiny flaw in the plan.
    Lieutenant George: O, what was that?
    Captain Blackadder: It was bollocks.
  2. #2
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    I've grouped the following together from numerous sources...

    Dresden was a center of cultural and architectural wonders, including the famous Zwinger Museum and Palace and the cathedral, the Frauenkirche.

    There were no military objectives of any consequence in the city--its destruction could do nothing to weaken the Nazi war machine. U.S. and British air warfare had left Dresden intact until that point.

    Articles 25, 27 and 56 of the Hague - prohibit bombardment "by whatever means" of undefended cities, cultural monuments, etc...

    By February 1945, refugees fleeing westward before the onrushing Red Army had doubled Dresden's population.

    The Soviet military forces were poised to seize the city from the Nazis.

    It was at that moment that the military and political strategists of Britain and the United States decided to launch a terror bombing attack.

    Winston Churchill was Britain's prime minister then. He was also responsible for war strategy, especially regarding its political aims. Churchill's goal in Europe was not only to destroy the military machine of Britain's imperialist rival--Germany--but to stop the advance of the Soviet Union.

    Churchill's goal in bombing Dresden was to impress the Soviets with the air power of the Western capitalist allies and to make sure that the Red Army would seize a dead city.

    —The term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

    —The term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than one country.

    —The term “terrorist group” means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism.

    CIA




    During three waves of attacks, over 1,300 British and U.S. bombers dropped more than 3,300 tons of bombs on Dresden. Many of the bombs were incendiaries.
    The incendiaries dropped on the old city center started a firestorm--a huge blaze that sucked the oxygen from the air. Temperatures soared as high as 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit. This had not been seen before in Europe, although U.S. bombing started a firestorm in Tokyo and the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki also set off firestorms.

    Article 23 (3) of the Hague - prohibits weapons calculated to cause unnecessary suffering.

    The cultural center of the city was totally destroyed. Meanwhile, the only possible military or economic targets--the barracks in the city's north and the train station where trains carrying reserves for the Eastern Front might depart--were left untouched.

    A look at aerial maps of the city before and after the terror attacks clearly shows the large white oil tanks owned by British-controlled Shell Oil. These tanks remained entirely untouched by the bombardment.

    Official figures issued by the new city government of Dresden, set up in the wake of the city's surrender to the Red Army, indicate that 35,000 people--mostly women, children and older people--suffocated in the firestorm or burned to death. Other studies give a much higher casualty figure for the attack. The presence of so many refugees made accurate counts difficult.


    Victims of the bombings.


    Here you can see the positioning of Dresden in the far east.


    --------------

    Oh yeah, and a last note to make. To all those who thought the list of american terrorist activities that i put up on soc v's cap, this is why WW2 is on there. Obviously there are far too many individual events to have noted on that list; and thus why i'm making this "series" of threads in "History"



    (Edited by James at 3:53 pm on July 31, 2002)
    Captain Blackadder: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Us, the Russians and the French on one side, Germany and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea being that each army would act as the other's deterrent. That way, there could never be a war.
    Private Baldrick: Except, this is sort of a war, isn't it?
    Captain Blackadder: That's right. There was one tiny flaw in the plan.
    Lieutenant George: O, what was that?
    Captain Blackadder: It was bollocks.
  3. #3
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    oh - no debate then ?

    Captain Blackadder: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Us, the Russians and the French on one side, Germany and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea being that each army would act as the other's deterrent. That way, there could never be a war.
    Private Baldrick: Except, this is sort of a war, isn't it?
    Captain Blackadder: That's right. There was one tiny flaw in the plan.
    Lieutenant George: O, what was that?
    Captain Blackadder: It was bollocks.
  4. #4
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    Erm.... not too much to debate. It happened, the Americans probably had alterior motives for choosing that site, end of story
  5. #5
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    oh, fair enough then (now i feel retarded.)
    Captain Blackadder: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Us, the Russians and the French on one side, Germany and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea being that each army would act as the other's deterrent. That way, there could never be a war.
    Private Baldrick: Except, this is sort of a war, isn't it?
    Captain Blackadder: That's right. There was one tiny flaw in the plan.
    Lieutenant George: O, what was that?
    Captain Blackadder: It was bollocks.
  6. #6
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    well its right in war times is almost imposseble to not make civilian casualatys expecialy during WWII, And now yo are wrong in one thing most of nazi propaganda was made in dresden (and poland etc..) see the nazis used all their culture and stuff to make propaganda, so by attacking dresden the allies were making the nazi war machine weaker, the allies used stupid bombs like the incendiary bombs but they needed to completly destroy nazi buildings, plus most of the war crimes were commited by the red army.
    excellent post!
  7. #7
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    Never forget: Don't make victims out of preparators! Overall, the Germans were the preparators NOT the victims.
    "The proletariat, when it seizes power [...] should and must at once undertake socialist measures in the most energetic, unyielding and unhesitant fashion, in other words, exercise a dictatorship, but a dictatorship of the CLASS, not of a party or of a clique -- dictatorship of the class, that means in the broadest possible form on the basis of the most active, unlimited participation of the mass of the people, of unlimited democracy." - Rosa Luxemburg

    "An Rhein und Ruhr marschieren wir. / Für unsere Freiheit kämpfen wir! / Den Streifendienst, schlagt ihn entzwei! / Edelweiß marschiert – Achtung – die Straße frei!"

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  8. #8
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    well its right in war times is almost imposseble to not make civilian casualatys expecialy during WWII, And now yo are wrong in one thing most of nazi propaganda was made in dresden (and poland etc..) see the nazis used all their culture and stuff to make propaganda, so by attacking dresden the allies were making the nazi war machine weaker, the allies used stupid bombs like the incendiary bombs but they needed to completly destroy nazi buildings, plus most of the war crimes were commited by the red army.
    excellent post!
    The point is though, is that this was as the war was coming to an end. The nazis had no chance, and dresden was about to be over-run by the reds.

    I don't know if it would have been better if dresden was still standing when they got there though...

    I personally believe that the bombing was done to show the reds what "we" were capable of, and probably a little bit of revenge for the blitz on london etc.

    Malte Posted on 3:56 pm on Aug. 1, 2002
    Never forget: Don't make victims out of preparators! Overall, the Germans were the preparators NOT the victims.
    I havn't said if they deserved it or not. I'm simply saying that as far as i know there were no military targets in dresden, and the war was about to end. Dresden hadn't been targeted before - so it was pritty much a complete city, that was about to fall into the hands of the red army. Basically, the allies commited a war crime on two different counts. Use of unneeded weapons that caused extra harm, and attacked a civillian area.
    Captain Blackadder: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Us, the Russians and the French on one side, Germany and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea being that each army would act as the other's deterrent. That way, there could never be a war.
    Private Baldrick: Except, this is sort of a war, isn't it?
    Captain Blackadder: That's right. There was one tiny flaw in the plan.
    Lieutenant George: O, what was that?
    Captain Blackadder: It was bollocks.
  9. #9
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    plus most of the war crimes were commited by the red army.

    I'm not taking sides, i think we have all heard about the soviets and how they are so evil blah blah blah. I just thought that we never hear about our own sides crimes.

    excellent post!

    aww, thanks mate.
    Captain Blackadder: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Us, the Russians and the French on one side, Germany and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea being that each army would act as the other's deterrent. That way, there could never be a war.
    Private Baldrick: Except, this is sort of a war, isn't it?
    Captain Blackadder: That's right. There was one tiny flaw in the plan.
    Lieutenant George: O, what was that?
    Captain Blackadder: It was bollocks.
  10. #10
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    "most of the war crimes were commited by the red army"

    that's blatantly wrong! The war crimes of the read army were just a reaction to the war crimes of the Germans! Never forget! Don't want to justify anything, but this is an very important point!
    "The proletariat, when it seizes power [...] should and must at once undertake socialist measures in the most energetic, unyielding and unhesitant fashion, in other words, exercise a dictatorship, but a dictatorship of the CLASS, not of a party or of a clique -- dictatorship of the class, that means in the broadest possible form on the basis of the most active, unlimited participation of the mass of the people, of unlimited democracy." - Rosa Luxemburg

    "An Rhein und Ruhr marschieren wir. / Für unsere Freiheit kämpfen wir! / Den Streifendienst, schlagt ihn entzwei! / Edelweiß marschiert – Achtung – die Straße frei!"

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  11. #11
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    The people of Drezden were innocent. The only ones who deserved to die were the Nazis. Not all germans were Nazis. America bombed Drezden to TERRORIZE the Germans, just like they nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki to TERRORIZE Japan.
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  12. #12
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    I agree with Drake, civilians cannot be held responsible for the actions of their governments
  13. #13
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    Thats not the point though. The point is is that they were not a military target, they were a civilian target. They were targeted as civilians. Thus its a war crime (on a grand scale).
    Captain Blackadder: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Us, the Russians and the French on one side, Germany and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea being that each army would act as the other&#39;s deterrent. That way, there could never be a war.
    Private Baldrick: Except, this is sort of a war, isn&#39;t it?
    Captain Blackadder: That&#39;s right. There was one tiny flaw in the plan.
    Lieutenant George: O, what was that?
    Captain Blackadder: It was bollocks.
  14. #14
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    What I'd be interested to learn is whether the Allies had any options besides bombing Dresden, etc. If they had no other choice, and it was the only way to win the war, that's certainly a lot different than it would be if they just did it for sport.

    Lindsay
    \"He\'s an idiot. But he\'s our idiot.\"
  15. #15
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    Well as has already been stated; there were no military targets, and it was about to fall into the red armies hands. It had never been in the war before the (except for one small american air raid) bombing, and was never in it again.
    Captain Blackadder: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Us, the Russians and the French on one side, Germany and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea being that each army would act as the other&#39;s deterrent. That way, there could never be a war.
    Private Baldrick: Except, this is sort of a war, isn&#39;t it?
    Captain Blackadder: That&#39;s right. There was one tiny flaw in the plan.
    Lieutenant George: O, what was that?
    Captain Blackadder: It was bollocks.
  16. #16
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    I'm not justifying it BUT, innocent people always die in wars and always will
    "Above all, I defend the cause of humanity. My country is the world and my religion is to do good" - Thomas Paine

    "The more I learn the less I know."
  17. #17
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    Innocent people do die in wars, but to purposely target a densely-populated civilian city is another matter.
    “There are no boundaries in this struggle to the death. We cannot be indifferent to what happens anywhere in the world, for a victory by any country over imperialism is our victory; just as any country's defeat is a defeat for all of us.” – Che Guevara

    “We still believe that the struggle of Ireland for freedom is a part of the world-wide upward movement of the toilers of the earth, and we still believe that the emancipation of the working class carries within it the end of all tyranny – national, political and social.” – James Connolly
  18. #18
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    Bang on.
    Captain Blackadder: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war two great super-armies developed. Us, the Russians and the French on one side, Germany and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea being that each army would act as the other&#39;s deterrent. That way, there could never be a war.
    Private Baldrick: Except, this is sort of a war, isn&#39;t it?
    Captain Blackadder: That&#39;s right. There was one tiny flaw in the plan.
    Lieutenant George: O, what was that?
    Captain Blackadder: It was bollocks.
  19. #19
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    "that's blatantly wrong! The war crimes of the read army were just a reaction to the war crimes of the Germans! Never forget! Don't want to justify anything, but this is an very important point!" - Malte

    I was refering to the war crimes commited by the allies, and making war crimes jst becase the other side is doing war crimes makes you a even worst murderer!
  20. #20
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    Yes because if someone else retalliates that doesn't make them a victor, just because they killed more innocent civilians than the other side!

    The Nazis as they went through Russia... killed and raped throughout their stay... the Russians did the same as they pushed the Nazis back...

    And how about in World War I when the allies blockaded Germany, with innocent people dying in the streets of hunger,

    "Austria-Hungary signed an amistice on November 3. Germany teetered on the edge of collapse as the war continued through October. Britian's naval blockade had nearly starved German people and widespread discontent led to roits and rising demands for peace"
    -http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/3017/

    We have done very many things wrong in this country the USa.. what about domestic attrocities with our indian brothers? has anyone heard of a thing called wounded knee?

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