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There have been many references in the news recently to racist security measures targting muslims and arabs. It seems like theres really a new wave of muslim-phobic press in the UK and US after the supposed 'terrorist plot'. The left needs to stand up for and with the middle eastern immigrant community against attempts to "profile" them.
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I think the lives of hundreds, if not thousands, of people are more important than the feelings of a group of people. It is undeniable that Muslim extremists are the ones trying to carry out terrorist plots, and so it is common sense, in my opinion, to watch them the most closely. If I were a Muslim, I would be happy that the authorities were making sure I was safe and I would rather be searched than killed.
That's great logic!
Here's a better idea: Let's just take ALL the Muslims and lock them up. That way, the tiny group of Islamists within the Muslim community will hurt only each other and leave the rest of us alone!
Or: we can ignore the most obvious characteristic of the terrorists, and when your plane flies into a building, you can kick yourself in the ass for it.Originally posted by Young Stupid Radical+Aug 14 2006, 04:09 PM--> (Young Stupid Radical @ Aug 14 2006, 04:09 PM)That's great logic!
Here's a better idea: Let's just take ALL the Muslims and lock them up. That way, the tiny group of Islamists within the Muslim community will hurt only each other and leave the rest of us alone!
only because many recent terrorist acts were commited by muslims, doesnt mean:
a) that they always have to look like muslims
b) that only they can commit terrorist acts
leading to
c) that its a good idea to concentrate on them
from a security point of view its very stupid... this is public, so all the terrorists have to do is find a girl of european decent to blow herself up and all this security is for nothing... or some insane person think he/she should blow herself up and do that... again security measures focusing on muslims is worth shit.
IF you are all into security you should controll each and everyone so closely that nothing can happen, everything else is just propaganda not security.
It's fairly easy to make a reasonable guess about a person's country of origin based on their skin color, but I see what you mean. It definitely won't always be easy to tell.
They are the ones that are most likely to commit them.
I disagree. You have forced them to find another willing person to commit suicide for their cause, which is not an easy task.
Right, so its okay for the state to violently oppress a segment of the population because the state says the 'terror alert' is red? You don't see the worrying precedence here?
Well yes, that is what the state and media has been telling us, but if you stepped away from the TV occasionally you might be aware of groups like Aryan Nations, 'cells' of the Christian Patriot Movement and Christian Identity Movement - i know its hard to imagine a terrorist being a white christian, but these people exist - and their 'plots' are real.
Here's a segment of an essay i wrote on this subject:
"In reality, as Jurgensmeyer notes, “there have been more attacks by Christian terrorist groups in the United States in the last fifteen years than Muslim ones”(Juergensmeyer 2004, p21)
The bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Office building in Oklahoma City in April 1995 by Timothy Mc Veigh, a 28-year-old US army veteran, was a water-shed for a decade’s old Christian Patriot movement, and the first major act of Christian terrorism in the modern era (Hoffman 1998, p105).
The term Christian Patriots as defined by Aho in The Politics of Righteousness: Idaho Christian Patriotism refers to:
“… people who assent to faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, feel duty-bound to reform the world after God's will (as perceived through the Bible and the U.S. Constitution), and believe that a satanic conspiracy designed to subvert God's will is operating in America” (Whitsel 1997, p139).
Other significant points of Christian Patriot doctrine are; an opposition to any form of government or secular authority beyond county level (particularly the federal government and the United Nations); the vilification of all Jews and non-white people as the literal progeny of Satan; a desire to achieve the racial as well as religious ‘purification’ of the US; the belief in a conspiracy theory of powerful Jewish interests controlling the government, banks and the media; and finally, advocating the overthrow of the US government, referred to by Patriots as the ZOG (Zionist Occupation Government)(Hoffman 1998, p111).
The movement is also by no means numerically insignificant, there is at present an estimated eight-hundred Christian Patriot groups organized in the United States, with a probable membership of no more than fifty-thousand (Hoffman 1998, p107).
The use of violence by the Christian Patriots
Although to date the terrorist actions undertaken by the Christian Patriots have amounted to far less deaths in the US than the actions of other religious terrorists on US soil, most notably, the attacks on the World Trade Centre and Pentagon of September 11 2001, there nevertheless are several cases where large-scale attacks were planned or were in the process of being planned by Patriots groups, that if they had been realized, would have caused large-scale death and destruction.
An indictment handed down by a US federal grand jury in 1987 alleged that representatives of fifteen Patriot groups met at the Aryan Nations headquarters in Idaho in 1983, to plan the overthrow of US government (Hoffman 1998, p115). Their plan had included a program of assassinations, bombings as well the poisoning of city-reservoirs. A raid by law-enforcement agents of a Patriot compound in Arkansas in April 1984, later confirmed the seriousness of this plot when agents uncovered a stockpile of thirty gallons of cyanide, which was to be used to poison reservoirs in Chicago and Washington (Hoffman 1998, p115).
Furthermore, in 1996, twelve members of another group, the ‘Viper Militia’ were arrested (six of whom were later charged) for ‘conspiracy to promote civil disorder’, when law-enforcement agents found illegal explosives and machine-guns in their compound (Hoffman 1998, p109).
The Viper Militia is also alleged to have plotted over a period of two years, to blow up seven federal office buildings in Arizona, and had already conducted detailed video reconnaissance of their target sites and were in the process of accumulating a stockpile of ammonium nitrate fertilizer to make high-powered explosives (Hoffman 1998, p109).
In addition to these incidents, members of the group Aryan Nations have been accused of murder, conducting armored car robberies, and robbing over twenty banks, to finance the overthrow of the ‘ZOG’ (Tourish & Wohlforth 2001, Online).
Another Patriot organization, The Order , staged two such bank robberies in the 1980s, netting over four million, dollars, and the group was also implicated in the 1984 murder of Alan Berg, a Jewish talk show host (Tourish & Wohlforth 2001, Online).
Your government would be proud
You don't think its problematics for a revolutionary leftist to be repeating the lines of George W. Bush?
Yeah whatever. You're not a muslim, and obviously don't give a fuck or understand how racial profiling, oppression functions. I guess it doesnt matter at all to you that people who are actually muslims and others who the authorities (acting within your bankrupt logic) think 'look muslim' - are not happy that they are subject to profiling, embarrassing searches, police harrassment, verbal and physical abuse?
So you think it would be easier/safer if the government just locked up all the muslims?
Do you think we should lock up all men as well? They are the most likely to commit rape. Perhaps we should take semen samples from every man just to be sure?
Or perhaps, we should start profiling working class people, they are the most likely to commit property offences, stealing, property damage etc.?
Um... no it's not.
Countries, nation-states, are artificial constructions, anyone of any 'skin colour' can be from ANY country, there's no such thing as a set national 'skin colour' - that is fucking absurd.
Yeah because there havent been any white 'terror' suspects ay?
By the by, weren't some of those recent London cats who got caught before the blew up a plane white Britons?
YSR: Reportedly, some of those arrested were converts to Islam. So maybe yes.
One reason to oppose profiling: It's politically harder for the state to impose and maintain police repressive measures if they're spread evenly. People will get fed up with constant police intrusion, the lines, etc.
'Course if somebody wants maximum police searching in the name of stopping terrorism, that won't be a consideration for 'em.
But if you're concerned about giving more power to the police, 'cause you know that power will be used against working people and our attempts to organize.....
you might tell the region his ancestors generell come from, but how can you tell if they are muslims? or christians? or emigrated? or imigrated?
see black dagger, you shouldn't believe everything you see on tv
they are recruiting their people, brainwasing them with religious bullshit and make them sacrifice their lives... they have some experiance on that field.
The only reason why the governments of our western world constantly pick out groups of society to blame (muslims are terrorist, unemployed live on our costs, smokers kill non-smokers) is because it directs attention from what the goverment is doing wrong, or whats wrong in the system, to groups of the society. The capitalist press supports this shit, because "THOSE DAMN MUSLIM EXTREMISTS" sells better than in depth study of a societical problem which would be complicated to handle.
One was a white British convert, one is black, and the rest appear to be Brits of Pakistani/Indian descent.
Personally I have to say I think the Muslim Council of Britain would be better served concentrating on putting its own house in order, and that of some of the Muslim communities in Britain, rather than worrying about this profiling.
However, given some of the "representatives" of that community believe all sorts of bonkers conspiracy theories about 9/11 or 7/7, that is probably a forlorn hope.......
"Personally I have to say I think the Muslim Council of Britain would be better served concentrating on putting its own house in order,"
It's hard to tell, though: if the MCB spends 90% of its time trying to find ways of keeping muslims under surveillance or whatever it is people want them to do, and 10% of its time campaigning against prejudicial profiling and trying to make its own points about the way government handles things, all that we'll see through the media is that 10%.
and exactly zero of these examples you have provided deal with plots to blow planes up. Everything you have said is irrelevent to this discussion.
I'm sure my government would be proud, because it is the duty of a government to protect the lives of its citizens. And no, not if what he has said makes sense. He may be a complete moron, but that doesn't make everything he says evil and terrible.
As I said before, I care more about my life than I do about the feelings of some people. And who says there has to be any harassment involved in it?
I don't remember saying that. Do you remember me saying that?
No. That would take a ridiculous amount of resources and would prove completely useless.
The truth hurts. I mean it would be completely stupid not to target those whom would be the most likely to carry out the terrorist attacks. It is not a race issue, it’s just probability, if you subscribe to an oppressive, militant, and fascist religion like islam is it any surprise?
I know when I came to America (coming from my native Germany), I was pulled aside for a more thorough check, and I didn’t get upset or anything, and they gave me cold looks, and ask a lot of annoying questions; and I am pure White (the palest guy you will ever meet, lol).
It’s really not that big of a deal, just a minor inconvenience, if you have nothing to hide why does it matter? You don’t see my crying about being questioned, and looked at and targeted because I had a shirt with a revolutionary slogan on it do you?
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Holy shit....
This attitude is the reason people tear shit up in the first place.
"Criticism must be sharp… If you do not do things well, I won't be satisfied with it, and if I offend you, I offend you, and that's that. To be afraid of offending people is nothing more than being afraid of losing votes and being afraid of having difficult relations in one's work with one's co-workers. Will I starve if you don't vote for me? Nothing of the sort. Actually, relations will be smoother if you speak out and put the problem clearly on the table… A bull has two horns because it has to fight. One purpose is for defense and another purpose is for offence. I have often asked comrades, Have you grown any horns on your head?' You comrades can feel your heads and see… I think that it's better to grow two horns,' because that conforms to Marxism" - Mao
Oh it is? I was fairly convinced it was because the muslims were angry about western involvement in the middle east, but I guess it makes sense that they're willing to take their own lives because we hurt their feelings a bit.Originally posted by Body Count+Aug 15 2006, 07:27 PM--> (Body Count @ Aug 15 2006, 07:27 PM)Holy shit....
This attitude is the reason people tear shit up in the first place. [/b]
I'm not just talking about the support of pig profiling...Originally posted by TheGreatOne+Aug 15 2006, 07:33 PM--> (TheGreatOne @ Aug 15 2006, 07:33 PM)Oh it is? I was fairly convinced it was because the muslims were angry about western involvement in the middle east, but I guess it makes sense that they're willing to take their own lives because we hurt their feelings a bit. [/b]Holy shit....
This attitude is the reason people tear shit up in the first place.
I'm talking about the entire attitude that people have towards Muslims.
"Criticism must be sharp… If you do not do things well, I won't be satisfied with it, and if I offend you, I offend you, and that's that. To be afraid of offending people is nothing more than being afraid of losing votes and being afraid of having difficult relations in one's work with one's co-workers. Will I starve if you don't vote for me? Nothing of the sort. Actually, relations will be smoother if you speak out and put the problem clearly on the table… A bull has two horns because it has to fight. One purpose is for defense and another purpose is for offence. I have often asked comrades, Have you grown any horns on your head?' You comrades can feel your heads and see… I think that it's better to grow two horns,' because that conforms to Marxism" - Mao
my point stands.
Indeed.
Lets look at it this way.
If there was currently a neo-nazi bombing campaign in the UK, and the police targetted their searches against white males, would the media be full of complaints saying how terrible this all is?
Possibly. Maybe not though.
I mean, I'm too young to remember what the Media's impression of IRA bombings was, but I imagine that there was both a degree of harassment against people who "looked" Irish-Catholic and I imagine there was a degree of Media opposition to this. Of course, it's unlikely that something like this would ever happen on the same scale with regards "white folk"....mainly because it's far easier to associate a minority ethnic group with a particular thing than a majority ethnic group.
So, in the case of the IRA, I imagine that the "racial profiling", if there was any, amounted to, in general, particularly dull Security Guards following ginger people around. Or people who smelt of Guiness....or something equally daft.
But, really, the Media's reaction to something is not relevant here. Whether the Media vocally opposes or condemns "racial profiling", still doesn't mean that it's an acceptable practice. Because, simply put, "flying whilst dark" isn't something that should warrant State harassment....and, likewise, in a similar vein, "driving whilst black" isn't something that should warrant State harrassment. Or, for that matter, "standing on a Street corner whilst young".
And, really, despite TheGreatOne's protestations, you simply can't tell someones "nationality" or their Religious affiliation by their skin colour....and to assert otherwise, is to utter the most dim witted nonsense possible. So, essentially, it becomes a case that "flying whilst dark" becomes a de facto crime....for non-Muslims and Muslims alike.
But this is ignoring the main point, there's already a huge amount of security at Airports....certainly more than is needed. Plus, one "plot" thought up by a few Muslims in no way justifies the response....and it certainly doesn't justify the profiling of a whole social group. And that's if we assume that there is some way to identify a Muslim and not just anyone of a slightly darker complextion....and we all know what happens when we assume something.
