Something In Common?

[Anti-Red]

You guys all hate fascists, and so do I, but let me point some things out. Fascists for one, are collectivists and anti-individualists and so are you. Fascists are anti-capitalist and so are you. Fascists want to force their ideology down people's throats and so do you, yet you deny imperialism but the Soviet Union was a red empire if I ever saw one. Fascists are militant, and so are you. I challenge one of you to point out the difference between you and fascists. Racism does not count because there are many fascists (including American Fascist Party) that are non-racist and Nazis are not fascists.

P.S. Why do you call us cappies fascist because we are the dead opposite of fascism?

[Comrade Marcel]

Someone please move this post to OI.

In the meantime, anyone who actually doesn't understand this can start here:

http://individual.utoronto.ca/mrodden/study/fascism.htm

http://marxists.org/glossary/terms/f/a.htm#fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[Shadowlegion]

the ultimate showing of irony. fascism on an anti-fascism forum... although I do not agree with all of his points, I've seen plenty of people pretty much get shunned for believing different from the popular belief here.. being one of them. long time ago though.

also, fascism isn't limited to capitalist governments, it's just a matter of what you want to believe though.

fascism
n : a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical
government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)

thought that was generally accepted. in a more complex definition you might find something like "allowing no political opposition or dissent."

[Si Pinto]

Originally posted by Anti-Red@Jul 10 2006, 02:39 AM
P.S. Why do you call us cappies fascist because we are the dead opposite of fascism?

Here's hoping

[Global_Justice]

fascism favours corporatism and the left doesn't. fascism is usually extreme-nationalism and the left isn't. fascism is totalitarian and most people on the left are anti-totalitarian. fascism is anti-rationalism and the left isn't. fascism is patriarchal and the left is not (or at least shouldn't be) fascism is also often racist and homosexual and the left is not.

so, in short, they are idealogical opposites....

........................................Fascism... ..........Socialism

Nationalism..........................Yes.......... .........No
Totalitarian..........................Yes......... ..........No
Rationalism............................No......... ...........Yes
Patriarchal............................Yes........ ...........No
Racism/Homosexual...............Yes..................No
Democratic............................No.......... ..........Yes(well hopefully, although some views of some people on here scare me)

[Comrade Marcel]

Global, I think you meant homophobic, not homosexual.. thought the nazis where roumored to be full of homoeroticism.

[Shadowlegion]

Originally posted by Global_Justice@Jul 10 2006, 03:13 PM
fascism favours corporatism and the left doesn't. fascism is usually extreme-nationalism and the left isn't. fascism is totalitarian and most people on the left are anti-totalitarian. fascism is anti-rationalism and the left isn't. fascism is patriarchal and the left is not (or at least shouldn't be) fascism is also often racist and homosexual and the left is not.

so, in short, they are idealogical opposites....

that sounds great and all up until the point you see the far left implementing fascism in order to get their points accross as if they are infallible. Simply arguing and being slightly moderate or different on one issue or another will and has gotten people pretty much restricted from even doing anything except opposing ideologies, if that. Benevolent ideals and policy don't always make benevolent reality.. the fact that you won't let so called "fascists" even voice themselves without being shoveled off to a corner of the forum is general oppression and fascist in nature. I am a leftist, but I don't feel that shouting down someone trying to speak on a college campus to try and stop them from speaking or generally killing any sort of debate besides internal and superficial debate really helps any causes of mine or anyone on the left. It's fairly hard to win hearts and minds when you won't let anyone else really speak if they go outside the general syntax.

[Comrade Marcel]

Limiting fascists in not fascistic; it's called common-sense. This is a board for leftists, and if we wanted to listen to fascist puke we would go to fascist boards. those of us who want to debate people in OI can go there. It's pretty simple.

Shadowlegion, you make no sense or point, what kind of "leftist" are you?

[Rollo]

Not that I have any problem with people sexual preferences but has anybody else noticed that the neo nazis show a lot of homosexual tendencies for people who apparently hate " gay scum ".

[The Resistor]

Originally posted by Anti-Red@Jul 10 2006, 02:39 AM
You guys all hate fascists, and so do I, but let me point some things out. Fascists for one, are collectivists and anti-individualists and so are you. Fascists are anti-capitalist and so are you. Fascists want to force their ideology down people's throats and so do you, yet you deny imperialism but the Soviet Union was a red empire if I ever saw one. Fascists are militant, and so are you. I challenge one of you to point out the difference between you and fascists. Racism does not count because there are many fascists (including American Fascist Party) that are non-racist and Nazis are not fascists.

P.S. Why do you call us cappies fascist because we are the dead opposite of fascism?

+-Fascists for one, are collectivists and anti-individualists and so are you.-+

How so anti-idividualists?:

'The freedom of the individual is the precondition of the freedom for all' - Marx

+-Fascists are anti-capitalist and so are you.- +

nothing wrong with anti-capitalism, but you cannot blame people (jews) but you can blame the system. (maybe thats just nazi and then I say only : nothing wrong with anti-capitalism)

+-Fascists want to force their ideology down people's throats and so do you,-+

First of all, most of us just wanna teach, explain. Maybe people like stain did that but why do you think there are different kinds of communisme(marxism, stalinism and such)

+-yet you deny imperialism but the Soviet Union was a red empire if I ever saw one-+

Maybe true, but you can also say the freed other people, from there slave masters. But im not saying that everthing of the SU was good

+- Fascists are militant, and so are you. -+

WE are not millitant, WE are revolutionairy, The SU might have been, but there was no choice: The nazis attacked and later on de USA threat.

+-I challenge one of you to point out the difference between you and fascists.-+

I just did.

+-Why do you call us cappies fascist because we are the dead opposite of fascism?-+

We are '''dead'' opposite of cappies, not facists... The are considerd extrem right wing.


I hope yóu'll read this, because if you don't I wrote this for nothing

[Fidel Follower]

OI please!!!

[Global_Justice]

Originally posted by Comrade Marcel@Jul 10 2006, 03:43 PM
Global, I think you meant homophobic, not homosexual.. thought the nazis where roumored to be full of homoeroticism.

yeah i meant homophobic someone must have edited my post :P board fairies??

[Ander]

Originally posted by Comrade Marcel@Jul 11 2006, 07:14 AM
Limiting fascists in not fascistic; it's called common-sense.

Shadowlegion, you make no sense or point, what kind of "leftist" are you?

I'm guessing he's the same kind of leftist as I am.

Although I think it's a good idea to have the OI forum and not let fascists run rampant around the forum, in a real life society everyone should be able to express themselves without repression.

[Zero]

Originally posted by "Jello"
in a real life society everyone should be able to express themselves without repression.

EXACTLY!

Boy, I couldn't have said it any better. Your right, in every society it should be one of the most guarded virtues; the right to be different, and to express a different opinion.

The part I don't get is why your advocating the Fash's right to express their "opinion" of taking their non-metaphysical bat and smacking it into the heads of people who are trying to find a better life for them and their families.

I bet you'll just love their right of expressing their hate in your face at night when your house is firebombed, while they are yelling "Kyke! Jew! Nigger! Red! Commie!"

Theres a difference between hate speech and rational speech. Anybody who decides that they want to blindly discriminate on a group of people based on their race, gender, political affiliation, or what-have-you based not on their actions, but because they are should not be suprised when they are met with strong confrontation from the rational people of the country.

[Anti-Red]

Actually fascism is not about racism. See the American Fascist Party, it is not racist.

[bcbm]

Originally posted by Anti-Red@Jul 12 2006, 07:42 AM
Actually fascism is not about racism. See the American Fascist Party, it is not racist.

You're right, fascism is not inherently racist. It is, however, inherently authoritarian, anti-rational, anti-communist and anti-democratic, among other things and every fascist regime to date has made a habit of putting it's enemies in mass graves. I'm not content to wait for history to repeat.

Furthermore, most fascists actively began attacking and murdering their enemies whenever they get the smallest foothold in an area.

[Matty_UK]

Originally posted by Anti-Red@Jul 10 2006, 02:39 AM
I challenge one of you to point out the difference between you and fascists.

You've been here how long and you still haven't twigged that the USSR is not communist?

Fascism-Centralised state with absolute power.
Communism-No state.

Fascism-Wealth in the hands of a small elite.
Communism-Wealth shared equally.

Fascism-No democracy.
Communism-Direct democracy with everyone taking part in all decisions relevant to them.

Fascism-Bourgoise syndicates are granted total legislative power in the workplace.
Communism-Everyone collectively makes decisions in the workplace.

Fascism-The individual is subordinate to a state or religion or race.
Communism-The individual is granted complete freedom.

Fascism-Trade Unions obsorbed by the state.
Communism-Independant non-hierarchal workers unions control the workplace.

Fascism-Nationalistic.
Communism-No nations.

Fascism-Industry both privately owned and subordinate to the state.
Communism-Industry publicly owned and independant.

Fascism-Centralisation to control economy in state's interests.
Communism-Directly democratic federations to run economy in public interest.

Fascism-Waged work.
Communism-Useful work.

By the way, fascism IS capitalist you donkey. The definition of capitalist is private ownership of the means of production which is an element of fascism.
Similarities between capitalism and fascism:

Capitalism+Fascism-Private ownership of means of production.

Capitalism+Fascism-Police forces defend the rich's interests and break up working class grassroots organisation.

Capitalism+Fascism-Military used to expand control of foreign markets.

Capitalism+Fascism-Uneven distribution of wealth.

Capitalism+Fascism-Strongest support from bourgoisie and petty bourgoisie.

Capitalism+Fascism-Strongest opposition from the working class.

[ack]

Originally posted by Global_Justice@Jul 10 2006, 11:13 AM
fascism favours corporatism and the left doesn't. fascism is usually extreme-nationalism and the left isn't. fascism is totalitarian and most people on the left are anti-totalitarian. fascism is anti-rationalism and the left isn't. fascism is patriarchal and the left is not (or at least shouldn't be) fascism is also often racist and homosexual and the left is not.

so, in short, they are idealogical opposites....

........................................Fascism... ..........Socialism

Nationalism..........................Yes.......... .........No
Totalitarian..........................Yes......... ..........No
Rationalism............................No......... ...........Yes
Patriarchal............................Yes........ ...........No
Racism/Homosexual...............Yes..................No
Democratic............................No.......... ..........Yes(well hopefully, although some views of some people on here scare me)

Wow. You nailed it. I was about to say that. Right on!

[Zero]

Yeah, sorry about not drawing the line between Fascism and Racism, but here in the USA all (or at least all the direct action on their side that I see) Fascist action is asociated with racism in some way. NSM, Neo-Nazi skins, White Seperatists, and the KKK to name a few.

[Tungsten]

Matty_UK

Fascism-Centralised state with absolute power.
Communism-No state.

You're defining communism by intended results instead of it's methodology. I posted comments a few weeks ago about how fallacious that is.

Fascism-Waged work.
Communism-Useful work.

Fascism = Forced work. And who defines "useful"?

By the way, fascism IS capitalist you donkey.

Except that the free market doesn't exist under fascism in any meaningful sense.

The definition of capitalist is private ownership of the means of production which is an element of fascism.

Fascism involves government ownership, not private ownership.

Similarities between capitalism and fascism:

Capitalism+Fascism-Private ownership of means of production.

Sure- Look at how Hitler allowed everyone to produce what they pleased without interference from the state! The rest of the similarities are ridiculous.