So your basically Pat Buchanan?
Just joking around, good to have you here. Opposing Ideologies is my favorite forum.
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I'm not here to start an argument, but to debate an opposing ideology as this forum implies. I earnestly hope that I'm not banned for not agreeing with you. I'm more than willing to debate any issue in a civil manner regardless of others' views.
I will start off by asking just what consitutes fascism. The term is open to interpretation depending how extreme one's views are.
Before answering, let me explain my views to help you better understand where I'm coming from. I'm an America conservative republican, though I despise Bush. I despise globalization. I'm very nationalistic in my views. I'm against abortion and fully support the death penalty. I'm am adamantly opposed to the War in Iraq, illegal immigration and Israeli influence on America foreign policy. That should give you a pretty good idea of where I stand politically.
I also see that many of you are opposed to racism. While I don't have a problem with that, it does exist and is not exclusive to any one race. Do any or all of you consider people who have racial views (for whatever reasons) to be hatemongers or racists?
I'd be interested in knowing if my views constitute your idea(s) of fascism.
Thank you for your time. I look forward to your replies.
So your basically Pat Buchanan?
Just joking around, good to have you here. Opposing Ideologies is my favorite forum.
Work. Buy. Consume. Die
EEK....not a good start.
Moi Aussi.
I am for staying out of people's personal lives. Abortion is a private medical decision, thus none of anyones business. I adamently oppose the death penalty.
Nationalism is very dangerous and opposed by us Internationalists!
I am opposed to ANY imperialist war.
All workers unite! End artificial borders!
good idea.
Yes. :angry:
Redstar2000
Free People's Movement
The kids may go hungry...but the village priest always eats well- Redstar2000
There is no such thing as race, it only exisits within a social contex.
Yes, they are reactionary.
Fascism is a very right wing, fiercely nationalist, totalitarian ideology with the aims of crushing powerful working class movements.
Racialists or racists. All fucking idiots the same.
"How you cling to your purity, young man! How afraid you are to soil your hands! All right, stay pure! What good will it do? Why did you join us? Purity is an idea for a yogi or a monk. You intellectuals and Bourgeois anarchists use it as a pretext for doing nothing. To do nothing, to remain motionless, arms at your sides, wearing kids gloves. Well, I have dirty hands. Right up to the elbows. I've plunged them in the filth and blood. But what do you hope? Do you think you'll govern innocently?"-Jean-Paul Sartre
fascism is not only "nationalist fervor" and "militarization", that shit is as old as fucking pyramids.
What differs fascism from other modes of totalitarian statism is that fascism tries to conciliate "opposing classes" through the mediation of the state. Unions are absorbed and converted into mere organs of the state, were supposedly unhappy workers can discuss peacefully solutions with the bourgeoisie while the state becomes an arbitrer of such discussions.
This is called corporatism, and ultimately renders those unions useless.
Formerly dada
[URL="https://gemeinwesen.wordpress.com/"species being[/URL] - A magazine of communist polemic
Well, that's open to argument. Race is is a social construct in the sense that human beings recognized the biological differences between the various sub-species of the human species and labeled the various sub-species as "races." Just like with any species of animal, the human animal is comprised of various subspecies. Whatever the case, most people identify themselves and others racially.
I agree that some views may be reactionary, but I think that's an oversimplistic analysis of a much more complex scenario. There's a multitude of reasons why people hold racial views.
America is a perfect example. America was founded on the very basis of racism and exploitation, ie: African American slavery and the continued exploitation of Mexican labor.
If we look at the issue of race from an all-inclusive perspective, it's easy to see why racist views are formed and sustained. Though, I will say that racism is greatly exacerbated by our own government.
But, even if we were to remove the government from the equation, I think it's very unrealistic to think racism would disappear. In order for racism to disapear, people of all races would have to adopt the same line of thinking. Logically, I don't see that as happening.
Well, the same could be said about communism in many (not all) respects. I mean, communism has taken more lives that capitalism or national socialism. It has had it's share of totalitarianism.
I agree with what you're saying with respect to capitalism and the crushing of the working class, but in all reality, national socialism has much in common with communism. Hitler for example worked in the best interests of the working class.
Well, that's open to argument. Race is is a social construct in the sense that human beings recognized the biological differences between the various sub-species of the human species and labeled the various sub-species as "races." Just like with any species of animal, the human animal is comprised of various subspecies. Whatever the case, most people identify themselves and others racially.
I agree that some views may be reactionary, but I think that's an oversimplistic analysis of a much more complex scenario. There's a multitude of reasons why people hold racial views.
America is a perfect example. America was founded on the very basis of racism and exploitation, ie: African American slavery and the continued exploitation of Mexican labor.
If we look at the issue of race from an all-inclusive perspective, it's easy to see why racist views are formed and sustained. Though, I will say that racism is greatly exacerbated by our own government.
But, even if we were to remove the government from the equation, I think it's very unrealistic to think racism would disappear. In order for racism to disapear, people of all races would have to adopt the same line of thinking. Logically, I don't see that as happening.
Well, the same could be said about communism in many (not all) respects. I mean, communism has taken more lives that capitalism or national socialism. It has had it's share of totalitarianism.
I agree with what you're saying with respect to capitalism and the crushing of the working class, but in all reality, national socialism has much in common with communism. Hitler for example worked in the best interests of the working class.
With all due respect, that's a dangerous assumption to make. I've been hanging out on racialist or racist websites for the past several months, analyzing their debates. While many of them do come across as idiots, many of them are well educated.
I see the (white) nationalist movement as gaining ground because they are making an effort to mainstream their views. I see them as growing to the point where simply attacking their views will soon be an ineffective tactic.
If people oppose racism, then they're going to have to be able to articulate their arguments better. The racists or racialists or whatever you choose to call them, have become very proficient at being able to present logical well thought out arguments.
I find both the extreme left and right fascinating. I'm not trying to change your opinion on things, nor am I taking sides. I'm just voicing opinions based on observations and offering some constructive criticism. I'm basically here to weigh the left vs. right arguments out of curiousity more than anything.
It's also worth noting that I've become very frustrated with the American government. I guess that's what prompted me to look at other perspectives.
This is entirely false.
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
Some of them are good with words, and can quite accurately recite their own broken logic, if your really dumb you can actually fall for it.
Attacking them will never be ineffective, or not worth doing, because the only other options are submission, or diplomacy. Neither of which will defeat Racism.
In all my years of antifascist action, I've never read one good argument validating racism. And believe me, im fairly sure I've heard them all. Now without going to far into putting up their arguments and knocking them down, they are all based on the assumption that race actually exists, and it dosn't. We also, as anti-racists, face a problem, and that is because racism is so bigoted and illogical, logical arguments don't seem to get through to the fash, so regardless of how mainstream or popular racism is, it's pile of motherfucking bullshit, and the best way to combat it is to smash the fuckers heads against the cold hard pavement, break up their meetings, trash their newspapers, stop them from organising and obliterate their movement before it even starts.
Well, I haven't really presented an argument for you to weigh up in opposition to theirs, im just splurting "Cable-Street traditionalism" at you, if you want to play devils advocate and prop up some pro-racist bullshit for us to criticise, feel free.
"How you cling to your purity, young man! How afraid you are to soil your hands! All right, stay pure! What good will it do? Why did you join us? Purity is an idea for a yogi or a monk. You intellectuals and Bourgeois anarchists use it as a pretext for doing nothing. To do nothing, to remain motionless, arms at your sides, wearing kids gloves. Well, I have dirty hands. Right up to the elbows. I've plunged them in the filth and blood. But what do you hope? Do you think you'll govern innocently?"-Jean-Paul Sartre
race has no scientific merit outside of sociological classification. There are no significant genetic variations within the human species to justify the division of “ races.”
How so? I'm fairly sure they would shut up when people are hunting them in the street and stringing them up from lamp posts.
People would just have to disspell the myth of a biological race.
That is all entirely false.
to quote libcom.
Well, there are scientists on both the left and the right. As long as there's a scientific division as to whether or not race exists, there's going to be controversey.
Be that as it may, my personal view is that race does exist in the form of the various sub-species that comprise the human species.
There are distinctive traits unique to the various subspecies or races just as there is with any sub-species of a specific species of animal.
Well, this sounds like a fascist tactic to me. You can't be opposed to fascism and then advocate fascist tactics. I point this out because it's detrimental to your cause politically speaking.Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2006, 09:54 AM
How so? I'm fairly sure they would shut up when people are hunting them in the street and stringing them up from lamp posts.
I admire your honesty, but politicts and honesty never go together when you're trying to win the hearts and minds of the masses. George W. Bush is a prime example.
Like I said above, even the scientific community is divided on the issue of race. For the sake of argument, let's assume that everyone adopted the leftist point of view in the scientific community. Do you honestly think that blacks wouldn't think of themselves as blacks, mongoloids (Asians) wouldn't identify themselves as mongoloids and so on?
No, not really. Stalin, Castro and Mao murdered countless tens-of-millions of people. You may not identify with these leaders, but their murderous deeds are inherent to communism.
Below is a compendium of what I'm trying to say. Please understand that I include Jewish with the term communism because communism is essentially a Jewish political ideology, ie:, Karl Marx.
Jewish/ Communist Genocide Never Addressed by History Books
1. WWII Katyn massacre in Poland (which eliminated 25,000 members of Poland's military and intellectual elite)
2. The post-WWII Polish Office of State Security massacres of German civilians (60-80,000 deaths, described in Sack (1993)
3. The massacre of the Christian Russian kulaks of 1924-30 (15 million killed)
5. The Ukranian holocaust of 1930-33 (7 million starved to death)
http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/
5. The holocaust of Russian political dissidents of 1919-49 (12 million dead)
6. The Spanish Civil War massacre of Spanish Christians, the various massacres of Palestinians (Deir Yassin, Qana and others), and so on (Fields (nd)
There is never a reference to Jewish Bolshevism's 50 million, or the larger communist movement's 100 million.
@Jul 7 2006, 09:54 AM
Interesting. I will most certainly look into this. Again, I am not a Hitler supporter or a nazi sympathizer. I'm here to weigh the arguments and learn.
Okay, fair enough. Just remember logic is relevant to ones' ideology.
The problem I have with the Antifa and other like-minded groups is, they epitomize everything they claim to be against. One could easily argue that the Antifa are fascists in their own right.
I think education is the key. Violence will never be supported by the masses. I think the racialists have come to realize that and have adopted a much more civil approach in how they choose to disseminate their views.
Well that depends on who you talk to. As I said to Skinz, the scientific community is divided on the issue of race. Basically divided from left wing and right wing perspectives. Yes, even scientists can use their findings in a biased manner if it suits their particular political beliefs.
Well, here you're advocating fascist tactics. Like I said above, the masses will never subscribe to violence on either side of the politcal spectrum.
Whenever some neo nazi beats down a minority, it hurts their cause tremendously. Conversely speaking, whenever the Antifa attacks free speech and engages in violence against those they oppose, it damages their cause tremendously. I find the extremist element to be the enemy of both the extreme right and left. Essentially, you're battling each other rather than for the hearts and minds of the masses.
In the grand scheme of things, neither the extreme left , nor the extreme right has any political clout. The latter is where the focus should be.
I'm not playing devil's advocate or making propping up any pro-racist views. I came here to debate the issues objectively. It's inaccurate to imply that I'm trying to prop up pro-racist rhetoric for simply voicing opinions based on observations.
Your wrong. I've not seen any actual biological science that proves race exists.
Like what? I can only think of two things you could be referring to, appreacnce, and characterises.
Appearance, as you well know comes from your parents. People inherit different skin colour, in the same way they inherit eye colour, hair colour, or diseases ect. If your going to say that someone or a group of people are all a different race because they are all black, then you might as well say that people with ginger hair are a race, or people with green eyes. I have simplified this a little, but I hope you understand the point im making here.
Characterises are different for everyone regardless of eye colour, skin colour, hair colour, ect, to put it rather blatantly; we are all individuals. People react to their environment, or however their environment treats them. If 'Races' act slightly differently, it's due to social traditions caused by the fact that their environment treats them as a homogeneous entity, or in a certain way.
The obliteration of fascism through violent struggle is necessary. We're not a bunch of pacifist hippies.
Im sorry, but fascism is simply not tolerable. I don't understand this liberal bullshit about Fascism being just as valid as any other idea, it's not. A quick look thorough the history books might show why.I admire your honesty, but politicts and honesty never go together when you're trying to win the hearts and minds of the masses. George W. Bush is a prime example.
"with the calm, tolerant words of the realist state that in any case nothing else is possible, reality is what it is, it is necessary' to make sacrifices; there, these people are swindling you. They are swindling you because you can do something else, because any one of us is capable of rising up in the name of our wounded dignity before such a swindle. Because any one of us can realise we have been swindled, because we have finally realised what is being done to our detriment. And in rising up against it all we can change that very reality"
They weren't communists. They were marxist-Leninist-whatevers.
There's nothing Jewish about communism. It's an atheist ideology, it, as far as the theory is concerned, has nothing to do with any religion, and so any claims of any sort of Jewish perscriptivism is blown out of the water. What you may be interested to learn is that many branches of communism don't base themselves of Marx's writings, some branches take heavy influence from Bakunin, who was infact an anti-semite, although we reject these racist sentiments, and accept his criticisms of authoritarianism and religion and other areas.
But of course, you and I both know you wern't refering to Judaism were you? This idea that there are "jewish ideas" was made up by the far right a long time ago. And such a conclusion was inevitable based on their flawed logic. As they anylise society on race, rather than class, and the jews being their opposition rather than the capitalists, any idology attempting to unify the people and abolish the concept of race and nation must be "jewish" because it opposes whtie supremacy.
It's really quite silly, from my perspective, because I am quite conscious of the fact that I have absolutely no jewish influence. Jews often annoy the fuck out of me, as do christians, scientologists and any other religious fundementalists.
"How you cling to your purity, young man! How afraid you are to soil your hands! All right, stay pure! What good will it do? Why did you join us? Purity is an idea for a yogi or a monk. You intellectuals and Bourgeois anarchists use it as a pretext for doing nothing. To do nothing, to remain motionless, arms at your sides, wearing kids gloves. Well, I have dirty hands. Right up to the elbows. I've plunged them in the filth and blood. But what do you hope? Do you think you'll govern innocently?"-Jean-Paul Sartre
Never?
Battle of Cable Street
Battle of notting hill
battle of lewisham
The French Resistance
Soweto riots
The Edelweiss Pirates
Battle of St Pauli
Red Lion Square, Waterloo ect ect
"How you cling to your purity, young man! How afraid you are to soil your hands! All right, stay pure! What good will it do? Why did you join us? Purity is an idea for a yogi or a monk. You intellectuals and Bourgeois anarchists use it as a pretext for doing nothing. To do nothing, to remain motionless, arms at your sides, wearing kids gloves. Well, I have dirty hands. Right up to the elbows. I've plunged them in the filth and blood. But what do you hope? Do you think you'll govern innocently?"-Jean-Paul Sartre
Racism is the love for one's own race, ancient culture, and people. In that sense, I am racist. But, in the sense that "racists" look down their noses at people from different backgrounds simply because they are different, I am not. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your blood and heritage, but there is a great problem with exterminating every other one.
Fascism puts the national majority on top and makes all others second class citizens, or even removes their citizenship. Its like bourgeois on steroids. Bad.
They're both shit, but the genocide is worce. Now fuck off.
"How you cling to your purity, young man! How afraid you are to soil your hands! All right, stay pure! What good will it do? Why did you join us? Purity is an idea for a yogi or a monk. You intellectuals and Bourgeois anarchists use it as a pretext for doing nothing. To do nothing, to remain motionless, arms at your sides, wearing kids gloves. Well, I have dirty hands. Right up to the elbows. I've plunged them in the filth and blood. But what do you hope? Do you think you'll govern innocently?"-Jean-Paul Sartre
For someone who likes to babble on about "education" it is quite amusing that a blunder such as this would be made.
There is no such thing as a human "sub-species". Any educated person knows that.
In the scientific world (one that you personally know nothing of) race is used to catergorise different species of non sentient animals.
And that's it.
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein
I didn't deny that so-called "communist" leaders killed, or led to, the deaths of a whole shit ton of people but to say that they killed more than capitalism and fascism is absolutely false.
Uh, ideologies don't have ethnicity.You should really try and hide your racism better.
Christians weren't massacred, just clergy who supported the fascists.
Last I checked, Israel isn't a "Communist" country.
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
If race exists as different species of Humans, then shouldnt mulatto's be infertile? this runs quite contrary to the neo-nazi arguement that people of mixed race are the fastest breeding. You cant have it both ways, either there is no such thing as race, or people of mixed race are all infertile.
So that knocks out the whole 'race as subspecies' arguement.
What nazi's and conservatives fail to realize is that culture is in a constant state of change because old generations always give way to new ones, and new people bring new culture. Humanity is 2 million years old, or thereabouts, and the language we are speaking as we know it is about half a millenia. Nobody will speak like we do in the centuries to come.
And by the way, I believe that America will eventually become a place where the people (if there still are people, lets hope) are all one colour. Why? throw all colours of paint in the same bucket and eventually you will get just one, but humanity will be far more beautiful than paint.
<span style=\'color:red\'>Liberty without Socialism is privilege, injustice; Socialism without Liberty is Slavery and Brutality.
-Mikhail Bakunin</span>
<span style=\'color:gray\'>The assumption that what currently exists must necessarily exist is the acid that corrodes all visionary thinking.
-Murray Bookchin</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
-Peter Kropotkin</span>
