The 4th Of July!

[MKS]

This time of year makes me reflect on many "American Ideals" and to ponder how a nation which so loudly proclaimed the equality of all men grew to become such a tyrant, to its own citizenry and to foreign citizens.

Some questions; Do you think the Colonies would have been better off not declaring independence?

Of course hindsight is 20/20 but one group of Americans that would have benefited from a Rebel loss in the War; the African Slaves. England abolished slavery throughout the Empire in 1833, 30 years before the Emancipation Proclamation was drafted.

Your thoughts.

[Everyday Anarchy]

I definitely think it was progressive for the colonies to break away from English rule. I'd take bourgeois democracy over aristocracy any day.

[MKS]

I definitely think it was progressive for the colonies to break away from English rule. I'd take bourgeois democracy over aristocracy any day

Do you really see a difference between the Democracy of the US and the Democracy of England? Both nations had and have clear aristocracy, although the English aristocracy is formally pronounced. The American Aristocracy was alive and well in 1776, in fact some say the Revolution was a revolution of the American Aristocracy in order to establish a greater economic independence. Just look at the founding fathers almost all were wealthy landowners or merchants (Jefferson, Hancock, Adams, Washington, Madison etc.) and voting in the early republic was a privilege only given to white, male landowners.

[theraven]

Originally posted by MKS@Jul 1 2006, 03:35 AM

I definitely think it was progressive for the colonies to break away from English rule. I'd take bourgeois democracy over aristocracy any day

Do you really see a difference between the Democracy of the US and the Democracy of England? Both nations had and have clear aristocracy, although the English aristocracy is formally pronounced. The American Aristocracy was alive and well in 1776, in fact some say the Revolution was a revolution of the American Aristocracy in order to establish a greater economic independence. Just look at the founding fathers almost all were wealthy landowners or merchants (Jefferson, Hancock, Adams, Washington, Madison etc.) and voting in the early republic was a privilege only given to white, male landowners.

voting rigths varied from place to place. in cities there was a poll tax, some places a literacy test, others a land test. this was to ensure an educated citizenry was voting because the founding fathers worried that the masses were to easily swayed.

also: revolutiosn are almsot always middle class/semi rich revolts see cuba (look at the rebel leaders, doctors, teachers, not exactly the proliterait) french revolution. In general revolts never get off the ground unless the middle class is on board.

[MKS]

In general revolts never get off the ground unless the middle class is on board.

The American Revolution was agitated and framed by an established Aristocracy, a secure upper class, the only thing that stood in their way to complete control over the land, trade and resoucres were the English Lords.

this was to ensure an educated citizenry was voting because the founding fathers worried that the masses were to easily swayed.

It was a law in almost all Original 13 states that only white property owners could vote, which might have seemed fair where the majority of people in the late 18th century were farmers who owned their own land however, as industrialization took shape and the working class emerged (farm to factory) such voting laws were proven unfair.
The framers not only worried that the masses were "easily swayed" but they openly stated the creation of an entrenched power system to protect property owners from the citizenry. (This was a belief held by Madison among others) They actually denounced emerging Capitalism because it gave too much power to the average man and endangered the Aristocracy.

It is obvious that the ideals of the Framers were just that; ideals that fell woefully short of the reality and failed to be realized for generations and some say still are not realized. America is basically one giant hypocrisy with no national character or culture, but only a Union of States founded on stolen land, built upon and spoiled, paved with concrete and the plastic homogeny of 20th Century consumerism. America is a wasteland inhabited by sheep.