"Counter"-discrimination?

[RevMARKSman]

Recently--up to and including now--there has been some sort of negative attitude towards bisexuals and androgynous people for "not deciding" aka not pigeon-holing themselves. Some bi's and androgenes have been fighting this and stating that there's nothing wrong with not conforming to society's standards. I fully support this.

But what about those who feel that they do belong in a pigeon-hole--specifically, the opposite one from which they were born? Just yesterday I spoke to my mother about how I felt male. She started stating that the reason I felt male was because of social constructs, that I could not conform to either sex role. If I felt male because of "society's constructs," then why is society opposing me BEING male? Why are they opposing their own "construct"? I think this is partly genetic, that my brain developed into a TYPICAL "male" (systemizing) brain while my body developed into a typical female body. Is there really a difference between the "male" and "female" brains or is my mom right? I don't feel androgynous, I feel MALE, and somehow she is trying to make me androgynous. The truth is, I don't want to be identified as female in any way, I want to be identified as male--all of the things that MOST of my peer females do simply repels me from the group I was born into.

Not only this, but she imposed her values on me by stating that I should not get surgery. WTF? My brain thinks it's male, my body is female, and I want them to match. I don't even want to be associated with the WORD female after seeing the actions of my biological pigeonhole peers. I cannot change my brain (if a computer was self-aware, would it actually WANT to change operating systems? I think not), so the logical result is to change my body. My mother is opposed to this, thinking that one should strive to maintain the body one was born in. But what if one was born wrong?

Maybe this is in the wrong forum but it seems like discrimination to me. If I think my brain is male, who does she think she is to oppose what my own brain has concluded about itself and try to change it to her own ends? Who is she to force androgyny on me when that's not where I belong?

I hope this is not sexist, it was not meant to be, it's just that I was born into the wrong pigeonhole and somehow my mom is pushing me to get out of BOTH when all I want is to be in the other.

[rioters bloc]

heya, there's a thread about transexuality here: http://www.revolutionaryleft.com/index.php...topic=41115&hl=

there are some interesting (and some very reactionary) ideas in there so check it out if you like

btw, i don't mean to be discouraging discussion in this thread, it's just i don't have time to write a proper response so i'll direct you there for the time being

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Your mother is smarter than the average mother - if she talks to you about social constructions. However, she is incorrect on this one. Transsexualism is a legitimate condition. There are cases of males losing their penis at birth and later moving for gender reassignment surgery. That is a strong case for gender being decided at birth. A lot of characteristics men and women have, however, are the result of social constructions. I don't understand the reasoning behind a desire to have gender reassessment sugery, but I'm not a transsexual I suppose.

[TC]

Just yesterday I spoke to my mother about how I felt male. She started stating that the reason I felt male was because of social constructs, that I could not conform to either sex role.

Well, she kind of has a point in a sense though. How can someone know how it would feel to be male...or for that matter feel like anyone else...when theyve never been anyone but themselves? Without that ability to make a comparison (which no one could have) any statements like, you feel male, have to be speculative, not based on any direct knowlege or experiance.

And, since its an essentially speculative statement, that speculation has to be based on assocatons you have with what it would mean to be male...and those assocations are necessarily based on what experiance you do have, lke, the experiance of the social construct of whats considered normal or even sterotypical for males and females.

I think this is partly genetic, that my brain developed into a TYPICAL \"male\" (systemizing) brain while my body developed into a typical female body. Is there really a difference between the \"male\" and \"female\" brains or is my mom right?

When people talk about differences between male and female brains in the systemizing/empathizing model, they aren\'t talking about absolute differences that define brains as male or female, the way that say, genitals or chromosomes define organisms as male or female. Instead, it only refers to a mild statistical trend where peoples gender is weakly predicitive of the degree to which they do better on systemizing tasks than empathizing tasks.

This is to say that the bell curve for the ratio between empathizing and systemizing skills for male and female populations would peak at different points, but there would be extensive, probably total overlap, between the two. So while there is a strong one to one coorelation between say, being male and having male genitals, the coorelation between being male and having a systemizing brain exists only very weakly. To make a comparson, given the difference in life expectancy, there is a weak coorelation between being 90 years old and being female, as there are more people who are 90 and female than 90 and male, but to say that being 90 years old is a female age, would be misleading.

(The systemizing/empathizing model itself is a fairly a speculatively model that only considers one relatively poorly defined feature that only really has a lot of relevance to studies of so called austistic spectrum disorders, which are more prevalent in males...im not sure that it has an especially strong empirical basis anyways, apart from the gender bias in autism rates)

all of the things that MOST of my peer females do simply repels me from the group I was born into.

Just because *most* (apparently not all?) girls your age have different preferences doesnt mean they have a different gender though. Plenty of girls and women dont enjoy typical, sterotypically feminine activities. When people say that gender role is a matter of social constructs they mean basically that, peoples impression of what is a proper male or female role is based on their social experiance.

I don\'t even want to be associated with the WORD female after seeing the actions of my biological pigeonhole peers.

...lol but if you dont want to be associated with a gender out of embarrasement of the actions of other people in the same gender...wouldnt you have a hard time being male too...teenage boys can do pretty embarrasing things too :-p.

Not only this, but she imposed her values on me by stating that I should not get surgery. WTF?...My mother is opposed to this, thinking that one should strive to maintain the body one was born in. But what if one was born wrong?..Who is she to force androgyny on me when that\'s not where I belong?

Well, i think thats pretty dumb...people change their bodies all the time to improve their apperance and/or make them feel better about themselves; people do that when they get their ears pierced or have more conventional types of cosmetic surgery, or even when they go on a diet or get tanned or change their hair style.

Its your body and youre the one who has to live with it not your mom so you should do whatever you think is going to be best for you...but as long as your mom isnt trying to prevent you from doing what you want, lol im not sure that its really unreasonable to express some skepticism about it...but either way your mom shouldnt try to impose her values on you, as you put it, since parents often want different things for their kids than they do anyways.

[RevMARKSman]

Just because *most* (apparently not all?) girls your age have different preferences doesnt mean they have a different gender though.

All that I know. But there are a billion more that I haven't met, hence the most.

Well, she kind of has a point in a sense though. How can someone know how it would feel to be male...or for that matter feel like anyone else...when theyve never been anyone but themselves? Without that ability to make a comparison (which no one could have) any statements like, you feel male, have to be speculative, not based on any direct knowlege or experiance.

I do have primary sources though...I do have criticisms and information on my peers' experiences.

It all comes down to this: My brain thinks it has been cheated--cheated out of upper body strength that MOST males don't have to work as hard for (trying not to generalize), out of major American football prospects, cheated out of having my own mannerisms and habits generally accepted among my peers.

...lol but if you dont want to be associated with a gender out of embarrasement of the actions of other people in the same gender...wouldnt you have a hard time being male too...teenage boys can do pretty embarrasing things too :-p.

I know there are assholes on both sides, but I'd rather deal with assholes in with my own mannerisms and natural gender and fight stereotypes than see female assholes (giggling all the time, standing still in hallways etc) which may only reinforce social stereotypes. In short, at least I wouldn't feel alienated from my peers and my body.